Why do we pray?

[marco]

We hear of angels forever praising God, which suggests a horrible existence. Jesus told us to point out, when we pray, that God is in heaven and request bread on a daily basis as well as forgiveness for anything we do wrong.

As an example of prayer we can look at the prayers offered to God in the Holocaust. Were they answered, and if not, what was the point? Perhaps prayer is best when it coincidentally hits a success button: we want sun and we get it.

Has prayer a purpose?

Is it just a waste of time?

[Zzyzx]

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And who knows, the butterfly wings of your charitable donations might somehow make miracles happen somewhere unseen.

'Miracles' happen here and now (not my doing). One group of ladies pick up leftovers from hotel complementary breakfast bars that previously was discarded, put it in meal boxes, and take it where they know it is needed. I am just the 'token male' in a support role.

Great group -- great mission. Though some or most of the ladies are religious, this is NOT a project of organized religion -- just people doing what they think is right. One of the ladies doing the boxing is 92 years old -- and all are at least sixty. They use personal vehicles to deliver food over quite an area.

[Goose]

When the outcome is favorable, the prayer is credited as confirming the Christian's belief in the existence of God.

Sure, but the belief in God is often held independently of beliefs about answered prayer.

The pre-existing belief in a supernatural God is precisely the source of the confirmation bias that is influencing the perception that a prayer was answered when it remains possible for the true cause of their observation to more accurately reside with a natural explanation.

That implies that a Christian who remains open to the possibility there is a natural explanation to an answered prayer isn’t guilty of confirmation bias.

I'm unaware of any example that a Christian will accept as confirmation that prayer does not work.

How about when God says “no� to a prayer? Wouldn’t that imply prayer did not work at least in that case?

No. When you claim to believe God said "no" to a prayer, that only confirms your belief that the prayer request was not in accordance with God's will and is not confirmation that prayer doesn't work.

This is confused. God said “no� to a prayer request doesn’t confirm my belief the prayer request was not in accordance with God's will. Not being in accordance with God’s will explains why the prayer was not answered in the Christian view. In a case where the prayer was not answered, prayer did not work.

I'm asking you to describe what you would accept as evidence against the claim that God answered your prayer. Pick a prayer you currently believe God answered and describe what sort of evidence would cause you to reconsider the possibility that a natural explanation might be more likely than the supernatural explanation.

Any case where the natural explanation is a better overall explanation in power and scope. The only instances where I hold the belief that God answered a prayer are those instances where it seems to me God answered the prayer is the best overall explanation. I’m happy to go with the best overall explanation whether it be a supernatural one or a natural one. My world view doesn’t a prior rule out either one.

Therefore, from the Christian's perspective, the claim that God answers prayer is unfalsifiable.

Correct. The Christian view of prayer is unfalsifiable. Is there something wrong with holding an unfalsifiable belief?

I'm not making a value judgment against holding an unfalsifiable belief;

But you do in just a moment. I will get to that. And you did in the past in another thread.

I'm defining agnosticism as being the philosophical position which holds that believing an unfalsifiable claim is true or false is unjustified since it cannot be tested.

You asserted in that thread that believing true an unfalsifiable claim is unjustified. That’s a judgement against holding an unfalsifiable belief.

only demonstrating where it is impossible to demonstrate that the unfalsifiable belief is true.

I sure hope you aren’t suggesting it’s impossible to demonstrate an unfalisfiable belief is true.

There is nothing wrong with Christians believing that God may be answering prayers, but it is dishonest for Christians to claim they know that such an unfalsifiable claim is true.

Providing the Christian does not have knowledge the claim is false and he has reason to think it is true, why would it be dishonest for a Christian to claim it is true?

As such, Christians have no mechanism by which they can determine if God was actually responsible for the outcome of a prayer or if confirmation bias was actually responsible for their perception that a prayer request was answered by God.

We could use the mechanism of reasoning to determine if God was responsible for the outcome.

It is philosophically impossible for any rational mechanism of reasoning to determine if such an unfalsifiable claim is true or false.

It’s impossible to rationally demonstrate an unfalsifiable claim is false. It’s not at all impossible to rationally demonstrate an unfalsifiable claim is true.

Any mechanism of reasoning that leads someone to conclude that an unfalsifiable claim is true must either be logically fallacious or has failed to mitigate for confirmation bias.

Here you make a judgement against holding an unfalsifiable claim is true. An incorrect judgement I might add.

I'm unaware of any logical arguments that demonstrate otherwise.

Consider the following claim:

• ((P -> Q) ^ ~ Q) -> ~ P

Now consider the truth table:

[mrow]P[mcol]Q[mcol]~P[mcol] ~Q[mcol]P->Q[mcol]^~Q[mcol]->~P [row]T[col]T[col]F[col]F[col]T[col]F[col][b]T[/b] [row]T[col]F[col]F[col]T[col]F[col]F[col][b]T[/b] [row]F[col]T[col]T[col]F[col]T[col]F[col][b]T[/b] [row]F[col]F[col]T[col]T[col]T[col]T[col][b]T[/b]

Notice the truth table shows the above claim always yields true (T) regardless of what truth values are assigned to the constituent variables P and Q making it a tautology. As such it’s also unfalsifiable. So which fallacy has been committed or where has there been a failure to mitigate for confirmation bias?

If Christians are able to respond to this post with a description of what they will accept as evidence against their belief that has God answered their prayers, I will be very appreciative.

I will accept evidence that God does not exist as evidence against my belief that God answers prayer.

There will never be sufficient evidence to demonstrate the non-existence of something unless that something describes a logical impossibility like a married bachelor or square circle. As such, there is no evidence I'm aware of that will demonstrate the non-existence of any proposed god unless the description of a proposed god constitutes a logical impossibility. Therefore, your request for such evidence constitutes a burden of proof fallacy. It is not anyone's responsibility to provide evidence that the Christian God does not exist. For the same reason, it is not your responsibility to provide evidence that all the other proposed gods do not exist. The burden of proof always resides with the person making the positive claim. This is a philosophical necessity. I'm unaware of any logical arguments that demonstrate otherwise. As such, I must consider your response to be invalid unless you can describe what evidence could be reasonably obtained that you would accept as confirmation that God does not exist.

Your accusation of a burden of proof fallacy is misplaced. A burden of proof fallacy would be committed if I were to explicitly make the claim God exists then assert you bear the burden to prove my claim false. I didn’t do that. You asked for what evidence I would accept as evidence against my belief that God answers prayers. I said I will accept evidence that God does not exist as evidence against my belief that God answers prayers. There’s no shifting of the burden of proof on my part here. Since it seems your only response here is to incorrectly accuse me of burden of proof fallacy I will consider your request as having been met. That implies I’m exempt from having to acknowledge my unfalsifiable belief about answered prayers only serve as evidence of confirmation bias.

[1213]

…I don't require thanks. The God of the bible seems to. …

Please show from where do you get that idea?

Is thanking God done with the hope that God might like you more and do more favours for you?

I am thanking because I am thankful and love God. I don’t deserve any favors from God, even if I thank Him.

Is politeness to god worth anything at all?

For me thanking is not a work that is done in hope of reward.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the violation of freewill when it comes to other people. Most things that you would pray for woould require freewill violations.

Sorry, I think that is in no way correct idea.

Like asking God to help you gain employment would mean violating the freewill of the employer to favour you over other candidates.

Sorry, I don’t think that is true. If I would ask help for employment and God would help me to become better so that the employer would want to pick me, because I am best for the job, employers free will is not affected in any way.

Asking God to soften people's hearts would be a violation of their freewill.

Free will doesn’t mean person is omnipotent. Person can have free will, even if things would go against the will. Also, the softening can be done in such way that it affects in no way to persons freewill.

[Miracle]

[Replying to 1213 in post #5]
Hello Marco.It is very interesting question which worth to be discussed. I think that everybody of us has his own reasons for prayers. We especially need in God in our hard moments.We pray and it gives us hope. You know, when my good friend was sick, I was sad and in that moment I’ve found great web page of Prayers. You send them your pray and it can be delivered to the churches around the world. It encouraged me a lot. After some time my friend recovered and I believe that my pray was heard. I think this web page could be good for everyone who need in enourage.

[jimtatertayte]

[Replying to 1213 in post #5]

Hello! Yes,I'm agree with you! We want to thank God! Everyone may have different reasons for it! We want to thank him for being healthy! For new day in our life. We pray God for love and family which we have. The most important is to do it sincerely and with all heart!

Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth,
and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.