Are people good or bad?

[otseng]

Even if the Bible did not exist, the notion that it is good to love others would still be there. I find it hard to get my head around the need for some sort of instructional manual to tell us how to be good people.

For debate:
Are people good or bad?
Are we inherently good or morally depraved?
Do we need an instruction manual to tell us how to be good people?

[Danmark]

How do you define "normal, ordinary people?"

Most of the people that you see in the airport, in the mall, at the workplace, in your neighborhood, in church, in sports arenas, in concert halls, etc. They are the everyday people that we encounter and interact with.

Evil is not limited to a subgroup of people on the fringes of society. Evil of various sorts are committed by people from all stratas of society.

As I wrote earlier, when people have little fear of getting caught, they are more likely to give in to their lesser selves.

Totally agree.

And I would add this is why God is a counter force to evil. An omniscient God who sees everything would ultimately hold us accountable to all our secret actions. Without God, people who believe they can get away with evil when nobody else would know can more easily fall into committing evil.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens

You may be confusing appearance of normality with normality. Yes, the face of 'evil' is often bland, almost always "ordinary." I am reminded of Hannah Arendt and 'The banality of evil, tho' the example of Eichmann might be used to make opposite arguments. But it is a special case when the entire leadership of a society sees things tribally. Homo Sapiens has morality that is sometimes only applied within the tribe. The 'other' is not treated the same way.

What we call "evil" is frequently, perhaps almost always, a result from abuse. Your rainn.org reference supports that.
Sociopaths are made, not born.
'Evil' does not exist as a force and more than 'God' exists as a force. "God" as pictured in the Bible is utterly human, with all of humanity's emotions and qualities good and bad. This Biblical 'god' appears so human because he is a character drawn by people. If you scan the literature you will find an almost invariable rule, 'bad' people are made by abusive, absent, or neglectful parents.

There is a myth that being a victim of sexual abuse causes the victim to become a perpetrator; but there is some truth to the myth in that a higher percentage of abusers report victimization than is reported by non abusers.

But it is not just sexual abuse that causes bad behavior. I recall a sociology professor telling us one of the few statistics they could rely upon was the high correlation between absent or abusive fathers and incarceration.

"Given the large research base suggesting that children who grow up in homes without a father present adverse outcomes at rates significantly above those with fathers present,...."
https://www.mnpsych.org/index.php%3Fopt ... %26id%3D54

[Danmark]

Exhibit 7: Sonderkommando

In the Nazi concentration camps, we wonder what evil people can lead the Jews to the gas chambers, force them to undress publicly, lie to them that they are going into the showers, pull out the gold in their teeth after they are dead, cut their hair to be sold, carry the bodies to the crematorium, crush the remaining bones, then throw the ashes into the river.

The people who did these things were ordinary people. They were called the Sonderkommando. They were not typically Germans, but rather, most of them were Jews.

The Sonderkommandos were groups of Jewish prisoners forced to perform a variety of duties in the gas chambers and crematoria of the Nazi camp system. They worked primarily in the Nazi killing centers, such as Auschwitz, but they were also used at other killing sites to dispose of the corpses of victims.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... rkommandos

How could a Jew commit such evil against another Jew? Because like all of us, we would rather choose our own welfare over another. They were given better rations than the other prisoners, allowed to live longer, and had better quarters. And if they didn't do it, they'd be immediately executed.

The Sonderkommando were not "evil" people. They were normal people that when tested under the most extreme test decided to commit evil.

You appear to be ignoring the fact they were coerced. Coerced by other 'ordinary people.' The key here is that the Nazi leadership saw Jews as members of a separate tribe, subhumans. When the 'other' is seen as belonging to a separate tribe, morals are seen to not apply. Exhibit #1, slavery.

[otseng]

Though it was eloquently put, What do you wish is to say? “Just like God programmed us to do?“

I believe every person has a free will and can make free choices. We are all responsible for our own actions. As a result, we cannot place the blame of our actions on another, including God. We are not robots that only follow a predetermined program.

[otseng]

You may be confusing appearance of normality with normality.

That reminds me of Dawkins saying nature only has the appearance of design, but is not actually designed.

Yes, the face of 'evil' is often bland, almost always "ordinary."

This is my main thesis. One may call it the "appearance of evil" or just "evil", but it is the ordinary person that commits evil.

Sociopaths are made, not born.

I'm not too concerned with the cause of evil of humans in this thread. I'm sure that's a long rabbit trail. But, I'll say it's most likely a combination of many factors that makes people prone to commit evil.

You appear to be ignoring the fact they were coerced. Coerced by other 'ordinary people.'

Well, the same thing can be said with everyone in the Nazi party. Yet, that excuse did not hold up in court. They were still responsible for their own actions, even if they were coerced to follow orders.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 83 by otseng]

Yes, freewill.
But the default goes one step beyond freewill.
Our natural or visceral responses would go to some subconscious or default behaviour.
That behaviour would have been a deliberate introduction by a creator.

Not all actions by men are a result of freewill, what about those above the level of instinct, but below conscious thought?

[Danmark]

Though it was eloquently put, What do you wish is to say? “Just like God programmed us to do?“

I believe every person has a free will and can make free choices. We are all responsible for our own actions. As a result, we cannot place the blame of our actions on another, including God. We are not robots that only follow a predetermined program.

I am astonished to hear you are not in agreement with our friend Ted Truscott.

[Danmark]

You may be confusing appearance of normality with normality.

That reminds me of Dawkins saying nature only has the appearance of design, but is not actually designed.

Yes, the face of 'evil' is often bland, almost always "ordinary."

This is my main thesis. One may call it the "appearance of evil" or just "evil", but it is the ordinary person that commits evil.

Sociopaths are made, not born.

I'm not too concerned with the cause of evil of humans in this thread. I'm sure that's a long rabbit trail. But, I'll say it's most likely a combination of many factors that makes people prone to commit evil.

You appear to be ignoring the fact they were coerced. Coerced by other 'ordinary people.'

Well, the same thing can be said with everyone in the Nazi party. Yet, that excuse did not hold up in court. They were still responsible for their own actions, even if they were coerced to follow orders.

Only a very small percentage of Nazis were tried, only 12 sentenced to death. Leaders involved in the planning and execution of the atrocities were the focus. I'm sure you see a distinction between a starving Jewish prisoner, tortured, facing certain death providing coerced assistance and a Nazi leader who initiated the murders.

Yes, I agree with Dawkins. Many things have a false appearance, particularly when looked at thru the lens of ideological or religious bias.

I am very much interested in the causes of evil and violence. I agree with you that ultimately we are each responsible for our own actions. But it is thought that there may be a genetic component to psychopathology.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ial-killer
Is one fully responsible if they have a genetic defect that is a substantial part of the 'evil' decisions? Combine a genetic predisposition with a horrendous, tortured childhood. Can one truly hold that person as responsible as someone raised in a fine Christian home and Christian community by loving, healthy parents?

In preparation for death penalty cases I've handled, I have reviewed the histories of people executed, as well as my anecdotal, personal observations of clients charged with horrific acts. There are exceptions, but many of these people were horribly mistreated as children, forced to watch sex acts, beaten, told it was their fault when beaten. I reviewed one case where the child was raised in a mental institution, because his mother was incarcerated for 'criminal insanity.'

Stanley Milgram's unethical experiment 'measured the willingness of study participants, men from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, in which they had to administer electric shocks to a "learner." These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.

The experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of subjects would fully obey the instructions, albeit reluctantly.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Perhaps we are more like sheep that we want to admit. Abraham was ordered to murder his son and, succumbing to authority he was willing. Was Abraham evil? Or is the authority [god] who ordered him to kill more responsible?

[Charles]

The only way a person can obtain eternal life and avoid damnation if to confess that they are indeed a bad person and ask God for undeserved grace.

Therefore only bad people can go to heaven. After all there are no good people according to Christian theology so there are no good people to go to heaven.

This does not explain Christianity - it garbles it with sphistry and is a misconstruction at that. Heaven is for the perfect whether by their free will or by being changed by GOD's grace.

No bad person goes to heaven. Formerly bad people who have a new character clean of all evil do go to heaven.

[Charles]

Welp, if you believe in a god, that means people should have been programmed good.

If GOD's purpose for our creation was for us to choose our own fate by our free will, to be righteous or evil, then there can have been no such thing as we should have been programmed good.

I believe in a GOD who created us with a free will to be able to fulfill HIS purpose for our creation.

[Zzyzx]

.

The only way a person can obtain eternal life and avoid damnation if to confess that they are indeed a bad person and ask God for undeserved grace.

Therefore only bad people can go to heaven. After all there are no good people according to Christian theology so there are no good people to go to heaven.

This does not explain Christianity - it garbles it with sphistry and is a misconstruction at that. Heaven is for the perfect whether by their free will or by being changed by GOD's grace.

No bad person goes to heaven. Formerly bad people who have a new character clean of all evil do go to heaven.

Evidently a deathbed conversion is sufficient according to Bible tales.

The most high-profile death bed / last-minute conversion to Christ in the Bible is the case of the criminal crucified alongside Jesus (Luke 23:39-43). Only moments before his own death, this criminal had been an unbelieving mocker of Christ (see Matthew 27:44). However, at the last moment the criminal repented and acknowledged Jesus as the heavenly King. The Lord gave him the blessed promise, “Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.�
https://www.gotquestions.org/death-bed-conversion.html