Contradictions Schmondrapictions

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is simply this: Why should any Christian care that there are contradictions in the Bible?

I used to play an old text game (a MUD) with a particularly brilliant, but also very vindictive and nasty programmer and owner.

One of the rules was that you had to be in character at all times, except whispers. There were also a lot of roleplaying rules that contradicted each other. For example, one rule said you could discuss your level if you phrased it as how many times you have trained at the inn, whereas in another place it said you could not discuss your level at all. He regularly exp fined people for discussing how many times they had trained at the inn, but he would exclude others.

When people he liked would break a rule, they would not be punished, because, you see, they were only following this other rule.

When people he disliked would do the exact same thing, they would be punished for breaking that first rule.

If God is so powerful that he can likewise determine what is good and evil, why shouldn't there be contradictions in the Bible and who cares? Presumably God can do what a mere visual basic programmer can, and determine right and wrong on the spot, through favouritism. He has every right, if it's his world in the first place.

Does this mean there's any point in following any of God's rules? I mean, he's free to punish you for following rules or reward you for breaking them. He's not bound by the laws he creates and he's free to make exceptions to any and all of them, right?

...Or do good and evil mean something regardless of what anyone (including God!) say about them?

[wiploc]

Suffice it to say, that I do not accet the premise upon which your question is based.

So you do not believe that god created morality? You don't think he could change it? You think that god is bound by morality like the rest of us, as opposed to being the master of it?

[Purple Knight]

Suffice it to say, that I do not accet the premise upon which your question is based.

So you do not believe that god created morality? You don't think he could change it? You think that god is bound by morality like the rest of us, as opposed to being the master of it?

Actually I don't even assume that. That's part of what I'm asking.

Presumably God can do what a mere visual basic programmer can, and determine right and wrong on the spot, through favouritism. He has every right, if it's his world in the first place.

Does this mean there's any point in following any of God's rules? I mean, he's free to punish you for following rules or reward you for breaking them. He's not bound by the laws he creates and he's free to make exceptions to any and all of them, right?

...Or do good and evil mean something regardless of what anyone (including God!) say about them?

See how I'm not assuming this, but asking it?

[JehovahsWitness]

Could it be that you see bad, what is good and what you perceive as good what is in reality bad?

No, because I'm making no judgment about good or bad. I'm asking you.

Yes but you are "asking" using words and in case you are unaware, the word "genocide" is a word that is considered a criminal offense. But fair enough, if I assume you do not know what the words in your own question means I will say God has never committed "genocide" so your question null and void.

Let's make a new word for killing every last Amalekite or wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah that means exactly what genocide means, only without the negative connotation.

A word that means "means exactly what genocide means," is ... genocide. If we remove the notion of criminality/ or immorality then it whatever word ine come up with WOULDNT MEAN "exactly what genocide means". Dictionaries are most useful when deciding on the meaning of words.

• Taking of life without the imposition (not implication, imposition) of criminality, is called KILLING.
• Killing during conflict is called WAR
• Killing by a given authority after due process is called EXECUTION.

If you meant to ask if I believe God has the right to kill or order killing, then the answer is yes.

If there's a hidden premise I'll remove it.

Well then do so (see above).

Frankly I see it as a basic question.

It is; its a basic loaded question. People that claim to ask questions that don't impose any moral judgement do well to pay attention to the meanings of the words they choose.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

If you're claiming that wiping out (or ordering to be wiped out) every last one of something is actually permissible, even potentially permissible, for anyone, that's a bold claim.

What do you mean "for anyone"? Are you suggesting that accepting God has the right to reclaim the life that belongs to Him, one must believe everyone has the same right?

Is it possible for the same act to be right when God does it and wrong for a Human?

Is it possible that sleeping with a woman is right when her husband does it and wrong when the postman does it?

Is it possible that picking up a baby from a hospital crib and taking it home with you is right when its mother does it but wrong when a total stranger does it?


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Does God have special moral privilege Humans do not?

What do you mean by "special moral privilege"?


If you mean does God have the right to do things that humans do not have the right to do? Yes, (see above)


If you mean does God have the right to violate the moral standards he sets for others, then again yes, but (and here's the point) he never does. YHWH holds himself to the same (no higher) moral standards he expects of his servants.

• - God is not always right because He's God
  
  - God is not always right because he decides what "right" is

...although those two points are true that is not what MAKES him always right...

God is always right because he always acts in the right way. His choices are always just, moral and good; they always result in the long term welbeing of all concerned.




JW


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[Difflugia]

Yes but you are "asking" using words and in case you are unaware, the word "genocide" is a word that is considered a criminal offense. Genocide is the killing of a large group of people that are related in some way. The etymology of the word implies that the members of the group are genetically related, but the usage has spread a bit to include other relationships.

Genocide is rightly considered a criminal offense, but the idea of it being a criminal offense isn't inherent in the word. Homicide is the killing of another person, murder is the crime of killing another person. Shooting someone in self-defense is still a homicide, even if not murder. Claiming that legal execution is "murder by the state" is technically incorrect and thus falls into the realm of hyperbole. The mass slaughter of aboriginal North Americans by the U.S. government during the 1800s was, though conducted under color of law, still genocide.

But fair enough, if I assume you do not know what the words in your own question means I will say God has never committed "genocide" so your question null and void.

But fair enough, if I assume you do not know what the words in your own response mean, I will say God committed "genocide" when He destroyed every human being except Noah and his family. The Israelites committed "genocide" when they slaughtered the Amalekites, even if the action was condoned by God and Saul's theocratic govenment and not murder.

Genocide can, of course, be made a crime in itself, just as "possession of marijuana" is a criminal offense in some places. That doesn't mean that people in Colorado don't also possess their marijuana, even though there it's not criminal.

A word that means "means exactly what genocide means," is ... genocide. If we remove the notion of criminality/ or immorality then it whatever word ine come up with WOULDNT MEAN "exactly what genocide means". Dictionaries are most useful when deciding on the meaning of words.

Yes it would, assuming that another pedant would recognize the validity of removing something that was never there in the first place. If we add the notion of criminality, however, it would be something like "mass murder of an interrelated group of people."

[Purple Knight]

God is always right because he always acts in the right way. His choices are always just, moral and good; they always result in the long term wellbeing of all concerned.

Is there a knowledge issue here? For example, I might think that I see some group of people who, when wiped out, would result in a better world. But that would make me Hitler.

The question would then be, in a world where Hitler succeeded in wiping out the Jews and he was correct that this would bring a better world, would that make the action permissible and even good?

It seems to me that this is the pragmatism question. A healthy man walks into the doctor's office for a checkup. It so happens that he is a perfect match for six very sick people who will die without his organs. Should this doctor slaughter the healthy fellow, butcher him, and spend one life to save six? According to the idea that wiping out the Amalekites was right not because God did it, but because it resulted in long term wellbeing (I am seriously upset that the spellchecker is pinging this; it's definitely a word) then the doctor should slaughter him.

There is always the argument that even with the doctor's best knowledge, he might be wrong that those lives will be saved. Or, all six sick people might be horrible genocidal maniacs themselves.

So, if the doctor can't act because he doesn't know, but God can because he does know, this is effectively special moral permission even if it's not technically special moral permission. It's special moral permission for anyone with infinite knowledge, which happens to be just God.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

Why should any Christian care that there are contradictions in the Bible?

They shouldn't care for a few reasons that I can see:

1) You can make the bible say almost anything you want when it suits your fancy
2) You can apply the old 'interpretation' excuse (also known, sometimes, and context, depending on the story being told)
3) You can rely on the old 'only with the holy spirit will you understand'
4) You can blame it on editing and or translations (you need to go back to the original language is the excuse I've been given so many times I've lost count)
5) It's individualized, meaning what one thing means to you it may not mean to another
6) You can just ignore it entirely and
7) You must have faith.

Only people that should care are those trying to make sense of the bible and truly understand the 'word of God'. Those that already accept it don't much care anything that's pointed out to them that flies in the face of their belief because, well, they already believe.

[brunumb]

Those that already accept it don't much care anything that's pointed out to them that flies in the face of their belief because, well, they already believe.

That struck a chord with me. There are those that argue about the issue of slavery as depicted in the bible as pertaining to the mores of their time. On the other hand, extremist sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses latch onto something like the two witness rule that might have been serviceable at the time and apply it strictly today. What this does is effectively create a haven for pedophiles and sexual predators where a child accuser is effectively treated as a liar while an adult perpetrator denying the allegations is treated as being truthful.

The Bible exists in so many variations that it is hard to regard it as the ultimate word of God. Even the smallest passage can sometimes be the focus of the beliefs of sects that have arisen as a result of influential individuals deciding how the Bible should be used. When you look at those groups more closely you can see that in the end the Bible is merely being used as a tool to manipulate and control people. When you see the misery and suffering that can occur, particularly in those extremist sects, you have to wonder where the Bible's message of love has gone.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to brunumb in post #20]

a haven for pedophiles and sexual predators where a child accuser is effectively treated as a liar while an adult perpetrator denying the allegations is treated as being truthful.

This rattled the follow thought from my brain: Luckily for the world, I am not God, so I may not understand this , but I've always thought deathbed confessions don't make much sense. You have a person that's lived their entire life trying to do and be good, but honestly can't bring themselves to believe, and they die and go to hell (by some Christian standards) then you have a mass murderer and child molesters that, on his dying breath, asks for forgiveness and BAM, instant heaven.
Is God so full of himself that no matter what someone does in this life, if they bow down to him and *kiss kiss* they get eternal reward that the other person didn't? No sense much less not fair.

The Bible exists in so many variations that it is hard to regard it as the ultimate word of God. Even the smallest passage can sometimes be the focus of the beliefs of sects that have arisen as a result of influential individuals deciding how the Bible should be used. When you look at those groups more closely you can see that in the end the Bible is merely being used as a tool to manipulate and control people.

Seems God needs a better editor.

When you see the misery and suffering that can occur, particularly in those extremist sects, you have to wonder where the Bible's message of love has gone.

To be fair, most anything can be used like this when people get their hands on it and find it can be used to manipulate others. That said, I'd expect a god who is supposed to have 'inspired
its writers to be a lot more involved with protecting his word, especially as it's supposed to be used to get his children in to heaven. But then again, I've found I expect A LOT more from a god than many believers do so....