Are we living in the last days?

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otseng
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Are we living in the last days?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

JehovahsWitness wrote: From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.
For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

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Post #261

Post by 2timothy316 »

Zzyzx wrote:
Provide readers with a concise definition that encompasses the many ways the term has been used here.
Rewrite the whole thread? No thanks. Failure to read what came before is not my fault nor my responsibly to explain it. I'm not your cliff notes.

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Post #262

Post by Zzyzx »

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2timothy316 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: Provide readers with a concise definition that encompasses the many ways the term has been used here.
Rewrite the whole thread? No thanks.
I didn't think you could.

I trust that readers understand that providing the requested definition does not constitute 'rewriting the whole thread'.

Thanks for the demo. (5400 views so far).
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Post #263

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 257 by Tcg]

If you're not going to read what has been said previously then I have no interest in continuing this discussion.
I have read what has been said previously as my quote from page 1 indicates.

You are free to discontinue this or any other discussion at any time. People do so for various and sundry reasons. No explanation is required.


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Re: Wasn't Jesus in error when implied he'd soon return?

Post #264

Post by wannabe »

polonius wrote: MATTHEW: Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

MARK: I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mark 13:30-31)


Could not the generation referred to by Jesus be in fact the generation of the Christian church.
Considering Jesus and his disciples are the core of the Christian church.
(He was addressing his disciples)
His disciples may not have recognized what they were generating but Jesus knew.

Re read this passage bearing this in mind (Mathew/Mark 13:30-31).
And then you might understand it better.
The emphasis isn't on the,' this', but rather the understanding of the word ,'generation'.
Search Results,Dictionary,Generation:
1.
all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.
"one of his generation's finest songwriters"
Similar:age,age group,peer group,cohort,stage of life
2.
the production or creation of something.
"methods of electricity generation"

From Oxford
Merrian Webster “THIS:� “the person, thing, or idea that is present or near in place, time, or thought or that has just been mentioned�
And in light of this understanding , isn't it true that the Christian church has not yet passed away(not in 2000 years)
:
:



Live to give , Give to live ( love Jesus )

: I believe a mans spirit is more than just his imagination.

I believe in forever. That's true even without religion.(or man)

: Live to give, give to life, Forgive to live.

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Re: Wasn't Jesus in error when implied he'd soon return?

Post #265

Post by Zzyzx »

.
wannabe wrote: Could not the generation referred to by Jesus be in fact the generation of the Christian church.
Of course. A generation can mean ANYTHING in theological word play. A day can mean a thousand years.

Accurate communication does not seem to be an objective in apologetics. Defending fanciful tales is the objective. Stretching definitions to the point of ridiculous is standard fare, as is playing translation games (pretending to be better qualified than official Bible translators, linguists, and editors).

"The Bible doesn't mean what it says, it means what I want it to mean."
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Re: Wasn't Jesus in error when implied he'd soon return?

Post #266

Post by Mithrae »

[Replying to post 263 by wannabe]

'Matthew' unequivocally believed that Jesus would return in his apostles' lifetimes:
  • Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Luke equally obviously avoided assigning a time-frame to Jesus' return, and in fact removed reference to the eschatological 'abomination of desolation' from Mark 13/Matt. 24 and instead inserted an indefinite "times of the gentiles":
  • Luke 17:20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.â€�

    Luke 21:20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The problem for critics is that Luke still kept the comments about "this generation" and the remarkably long-lasting endurance of Jesus' words (21:32-33): Apparently Luke didn't think that "this generation" necessarily referred to the lifespans of Jesus' immediate hearers, so on what basis do critics insist on that interpretation?

The problems for Christians of course are that 'Matthew' was obviously wrong, and the freedom with which these authors changed and invented their material doesn't give a whole lot of credibility to the Jesus stories in general. Furthermore even Luke's invented "times of the gentiles" for the trampling of Jerusalem seem to have been finished for over half a century now - at least a couple of generations by genealogical reckoning.

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Post #267

Post by pleinmont »

People have been predicting the so called 'end times' for a very long time. Eventually the world will end due to natural causes, nothing to do with any god, imo.

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Post #268

Post by Zzyzx »

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pleinmont wrote: People have been predicting the so called 'end times' for a very long time. Eventually the world will end due to natural causes, nothing to do with any god, imo.
Agree. Those enthralled with Armageddon / Rapture / End Times frequently make predictions. When their anticipated date passes with nothing happening, they make excuses and perhaps another prediction.

Kick the can down the road.
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Re: Wasn't Jesus in error when implied he'd soon return?

Post #269

Post by Diogenes »

Mithrae wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 9:54 pm [Replying to post 263 by wannabe]

'Matthew' unequivocally believed that Jesus would return in his apostles' lifetimes:
  • Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Jesus failed to fulfill his central prophesy.
Christianity flourished despite this glaring failure.
This represents a triumph of organization over truth.
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Re: Wasn't Jesus in error when implied he'd soon return?

Post #270

Post by Mithrae »

Diogenes wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:26 pm
Mithrae wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 9:54 pm [Replying to post 263 by wannabe]

'Matthew' unequivocally believed that Jesus would return in his apostles' lifetimes:
  • Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Jesus failed to fulfill his central prophesy.
Christianity flourished despite this glaring failure.
This represents a triumph of organization over truth.
Those words belong to the author of Matthew, not to Jesus: 'Matthew' changed the ambiguous wording of Mark 9:1 into the explicitly eschatological prediction of Mt 16:28 quoted above, and the prediction of Mt. 10:23 apparently comes entirely from the author's imagination as it's not found anywhere else, even in related passages of Jesus sending the apostles out to preach.

Whether or not Jesus himself predicted his return within his followers' lifetimes (or predicted a departure and return at all!) is not clear. The best evidence (such as it is) that he did preach something along those lines is the early and obvious belief of Paul that the end would come 'soon'; but Paul does not attribute that teaching to Jesus himself, and hadn't been a follower of the living Jesus in any case, but built his whole theology around a Jesus who was already departed.

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