Are we living in the last days?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20501
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 336 times
Contact:

Are we living in the last days?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

JehovahsWitness wrote: From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.
For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post #361

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:18 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:03 pm But there's reckoning coming for everyone, including myself.
I will concede that at some point in the future, I’ll die. And that’s true of every human. Do you mean that this ‘reckoning’ will happen at the point of death, or before?

Biblically, that would dépend on the individual. According to scripture, all humans will face judgement for their actions and decisions. This will be based on what they did with the information available. Only Almighty God can say if that jugement will preceed death or life but it seems reasonable to make sensible choices now, while we still can.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:03 pm Psalms 37:11 says the humble will take possession of the Earth. Those that are not humble well, everlasting cutting off. One can't tell someone dead, "I told you so." as the dead have no thoughts of remorse or anything at all. (Ecc 9:5)

The bible speaks of a coming great judgement of humanity. Those deemed incorrigibly wicked will be executed; those judge humble will live on. Since more than winning an argument may be at stake, it seems a reasonable approach to put ego aside and examine the evidence before rejecting the possibility of this biblical judgement. In my experience few are humble enough to admit they have never actually done this.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8488
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Re:

Post #362

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:48 am Those deemed incorrigibly wicked will be executed; those judge humble will live on.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
Incorrigibly wicked? Would that include the cover up of sexual abuse perpetrated by members of an organization to protect that group's reputation?
Pennsylvania opens grand jury investigation into Jehovah’s Witnesses’ cover-up of child sex abuse

Brooks, 32, was sexually abused when she was 15 by two adult members of her York, Pennsylvania, Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation. She’s currently preparing a lawsuit against the Watchtower for failing to protect her and report her abuse to police. She gave testimony to the grand jury in August for an hour and a half.

“The jury was a couple feet away from me,” she said. “It was very emotionally draining. It was like a roller coaster the whole day. I’d never met them, I didn’t know their names and here I am telling them how I was touched and where I was touched.”

Investigators also asked about documents pertaining to her case and how the organization handles documents related to child abuse. In Brooks’ case, she says internal documents that would’ve helped prove her case went missing. A former elder has said he and other elders were ordered to shred documents in the case.

https://revealnews.org/article/pennsylv ... sex-abuse/

Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: Re:

Post #363

Post by 2timothy316 »

Diagoras wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:18 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:03 pm But there's reckoning coming for everyone, including myself.
I will concede that at some point in the future, I’ll die. And that’s true of every human. Do you mean that this ‘reckoning’ will happen at the point of death, or before?
It's like being on a road where you start seeing signs that say "Bridge Out Ahead 2000ft drop, death assured". If a person stays on that road I don't think they should expect anything different than a huge crash and death. So the reckoning is happening now by what course we are choosing now.

Meanwhile there is ramp off that dead end road that says, "Life assured turn here". That road is must safer than the road they are on. However, a person sees that narrow road but they don't chose it because it's narrow, they can't go as fast as they want on it, it has checkpoints looking for unsafe drivers and will require maintenance on their car before they can use the road. So they never turn off the dead end road because they like to drive their own way. Well, so be it they will get what they want but they will also get what is at the end of that road.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post #364

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:11 pm
It's like being on a road where you start seeing signs that say "Bridge Out Ahead 2000ft drop, death assured". If a person stays on that road I don't think they should expect anything different than a huge crash and death. So the reckoning is happening now by what course we are choosing now.

Meanwhile there is ramp off that dead end road that says, "Life assured turn here". That road is must safer than the road they are on. However, a person sees that narrow road but they don't chose it because it's narrow, they can't go as fast as they want on it, it has checkpoints looking for unsafe drivers and will require maintenance on their car before they can use the road. So they never turn off the dead end road because they like to drive their own way. Well, so be it they will get what they want but they will also get what is at the end of that road.
I agréé, in the context of the "last days" Jesus spoke of "signs", biblically how we read them is a good indication of what the future holds for us.







JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: Re:

Post #365

Post by Diagoras »

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #364]

Nice analogy. I’m sure we could all come up with similar ones to support our own world view.

The message “turn to God, or there will be trouble” has been re-stated countless times and in countless ways since Christianity began. Deuteronomy 28 might still hold sway over some people, but most now see it for what it is: baseless fearmongering.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8488
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Re:

Post #366

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:11 pm It's like being on a road where you start seeing signs that say "Bridge Out Ahead 2000ft drop, death assured". If a person stays on that road I don't think they should expect anything different than a huge crash and death.
Of course not all warnings are accurate:
Changed Dates :: Failed Predictions

Of these above dates only 1914 is still considered significant, and even then, mostly for different reasons than originally prescribed. Though part of Watchtower lore for 60 years, most current Jehovah's Witnesses are unaware of their significance and that each one failed to eventuate as predicted.

Each time the Watchtower has predicted an occurrence, it has not eventuated as foretold, a 100% failure rate. Does this inspire confidence in Watchtower interpretation? Jehovah's Witnesses promoted these falsehoods in the past, and continue to zealously advocate current doctrine as unfailing truths.

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1800s.php
It'd be rather sad to spend one's life fearing something that isn't going to happen. Of course scare tactics do work on some so their effectiveness is apparent thus there continued use in attempts to convert followers. The fact that some people fear something however, is not evidence that what they fear will ever be realized.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: Re:

Post #367

Post by 2timothy316 »

Diagoras wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:41 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #364]

Nice analogy. I’m sure we could all come up with similar ones to support our own world view.

The message “turn to God, or there will be trouble” has been re-stated countless times and in countless ways since Christianity began. Deuteronomy 28 might still hold sway over some people, but most now see it for what it is: baseless fearmongering.
Your opinion is noted.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14003
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post #368

Post by William »

Diagoras wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:41 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #364]

Nice analogy. I’m sure we could all come up with similar ones to support our own world view.

The message “turn to God, or there will be trouble” has been re-stated countless times and in countless ways since Christianity began. Deuteronomy 28 might still hold sway over some people, but most now see it for what it is: baseless fearmongering.
There is no certainty that the bridge is even out. The sign itself might be fraudulent.

According to some Christians, when you die you get heaven [narrow path] or hell. [bridge out crash] According to other Christians, when you die, you are resurrected [narrow path] or are simply left dead. [bridge out crash]

It all depends upon ones belief in the "Bridge is Out" sign as well as one's belief in the "Narrow Path" sign(s) and how that Narrow Path is fractal [down the rabbit hole] has to do with those subsequent beliefs spawned upon said 'path'.

Back at the road side, neither may actually be actually truthful signs. The Bridge sign may be just a tactic to get people to choose the Narrow Path...which itself turns into narrower and narrower paths...[rabbit hole]

Best option re death is to live life and face death as if they were really just the same thing done differently...foot to the floor on occasion...but really, telling people they are on a road to suicide or worse?

How is that helpful?

Image

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: Re:

Post #369

Post by Diagoras »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:29 pm Your opinion is noted.

I’m happy to trade opinions while you’re noting them. For instance:
We have been in the last days of the world as we know it since the turn of the century.
See my earlier response in Post 327:
viewtopic.php?p=1030007#p1030007

Perhaps we could find agreement on which parts of my post were opinion though?
Nice analogy.
Yep. Opinion.
I’m sure we could all come up with similar ones to support our own world view.
Perhaps not everyone could come up with counter-analogies, I’ll grant you. A slight case of hyperbole aside, will you agree that such counter-analogies are relatively simple to construct?
The message “turn to God, or there will be trouble” has been re-stated countless times and in countless ways since Christianity began.
Perhaps rather crudely put, but still a fact. Others here have already highlighted the astonishing number of failed ‘end of the world’ prophecies.
Deuteronomy 28 might still hold sway over some people, but most now see it for what it is: baseless fearmongering.
For the first part, we could speculate on what percentage of Christians this applies to - bearing in mind that’s from a pool of only around 31% of the world’s population. Biblical literalists do exist, therefore ‘some’ is a true statement, even if a tad vague.

For the second part, yes, that’s an opinion. But on a personal level, it is a fact that I have never experienced anything like the curses and punishments that it described, despite not obeying God. On the contrary: much of my life resembles the good fortunes described in the first part of that chapter, describing the obedient servant of god.

What surety can we give other biblical warnings when this is stated so clearly, yet is so demonstrably wrong?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post #370

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:45 pm
We have been in the last days of the world as we know it since the turn of the century.
See my earlier response in Post 327:
viewtopic.php?p=1030007#p1030007
Yes, according to bible chronology since 1914 to be exact.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS do not hold (as per your link) that Gog of Magog to be a single individual but symbolic of a global alliance.

"Gog refers to earthly nations that will attack God’s people in the near future" - rr chap 17 p 182 par 10
Image
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply