Are we living in the last days?

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otseng
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Are we living in the last days?

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Post by otseng »

JehovahsWitness wrote: From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.
For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

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Re: Re:

Post #281

Post by Deeogee »

[Replying to woodtick in post #279]

Re 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Not some 2000 years later.

Revelation was wrote to the 7 churches in Asia (Rev.1:11). (not you or I)

Some people were placed into the church (kingdom) in the first century according to (Acts 2:38,47) (Col.1:13).
You purified your souls in obeying the truth...being born again. (1Peter 1:22,23)

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Post #282

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Re: Are we living in the last days?

Post #283

Post by Icey »

otseng wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:42 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.
For debate:
Are we living in the last days?
Every day is one day closer to the end of time (as far as humanity is concerned) so it's accurate to say, based only on that, that we are living in the 'end times'.
Other than that, it's all conjecture and arguing over it does nothing to further the cause or elevate or mental state/understanding of the world around us

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Re: Re:

Post #284

Post by Mithrae »

woodtick wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:17 pm The book is so full of vivid details and cataclysmic events that a first century person wouldn't be able to understand or decipher the Revelation. Even IF events did pass in the 1st century that fulfilled Revelation, they should easily be historically proven. Good luck doing that!
The book of Daniel, supposedly written in the 6th century BCE about events mere hundreds of years in the future, concludes with a command to seal up the prophecy until the time of the end:
  • Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end. Many shall be running back and forth, and evil shall increase.” . . . . 8 I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” 9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the end.

Revelation, which obviously draws heavily on many of Daniel's themes, explicitly reverses that command and says that the end is soon, not hundreds (let alone thousands!) of years hence:
  • Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. . . . 12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. . . . 20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.”
These were false prophecies of course - the time was not near and Jesus did not return soon - but it is quite clear that John of Patmos did intend his readers to understand at least some of his themes. For example:
> The whore, 'Babylon,' seated on seven mountains (17:9) obviously represents Rome, built on seven hills, and its empire; the second kingdom after the Babylonians to destroy the Jewish temple
> The seven kings, five fallen, one living and one to come; the author (either in fact, or as a literary device) writes under the reign of the sixth 'emperor' Vespasian* who waged war against the Jews before returning to Rome to become ruler, and whose son and heir Titus destroyed the temple. (An alternative view suggests that the literary device has him writing under the reign of the sixth Caesar, Nero, beginning the count with Julius rather than Augustus.)
> The 'number of the beast'; most commonly is said to match the name of Nero**. But with differences in spelling/transliteration, inclusion or exclusion of family names, cognomens and different titles/honorifics, options of using gematria in either Greek or Hebrew (or Roman numerals in the Latin script, for that matter) it could just as easily be applied to Vespasian or Titus, or probably almost anyone else were one so inclined. Notably however, of the three it was Vespasian who was widely(?) proclaimed to be Messiah, for example by Josephus, Seutonius and Tacitus.
> The idolatrous 'mark' without which no-one could buy or sell; in Jewish tradition devotion to God in thoughts and deeds was represented as binding his words on the forehead and hand (Deut. 11:18; interpreted literally with the use of tefillin/phylacteries), which is mirrored in Rev. 13:16. Buying and selling was obviously done with coins, but with the image of the supposedly-divine emperor on them, most imperial coins were regarded as idolatrous by Christians and Jews - and particularly the Judaea Capta coins minted by Vespasian and his sons Titus and Domitian. I'm sure I've read somewhere that after their revolt the Jews were forbidden from minting their own non-idolatrous coins which they'd previously been permitted, which would make sense, but I can't find a source for that at the moment.

* Vespasian was the sixth emperor excluding the mere months-long reigns of Galba, Otho and Vitellius in the 'year of the four emperors.' Interestingly, the vision in Daniel 7 refers to three beasts apparently representing the Babylonians, Persians and Greeks and then a fourth beast with ten horns of which three were torn up to make way for a boastful horn which made war with the holy ones. Obviously, when counting the 'reigns' of Galba, Otho and Vitellius who had to make way for them, the tenth Caesar (or emperor) would be Vespasian (or Titus); an interesting possible interpretation, though Revelation doesn't seem to incorporate it.

** One major reason for the popularity of incorporating Nero as a key figure of Revelation is the Nero Redivivus legend, which may be alluded to in the verse saying that one of the seven kings would return as the eighth. One of the Nero imposters apparently rose up in Asia, the region to which Revelation was addressed; though that was during the reign of Titus which would have made the imposter the ninth Caesar if he'd been successful, not the eighth.

woodtick wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:17 pm The book is so full of symbolism that it renders it about useless to the first century church as they had very little time to study it, copy it, or preach it, or distribute it especially during a time of Roman persecution. It made no sense to them and provided no message to people in that day.
Pretty much every single generation of Christians which has existed since the 1st century and right down to the present have found ways of making Revelation "provide a message to people in their day." Following the 7th century the 'number of the beast' was made to match the name of Muhammad; following the 16th, the obvious allusions to Rome meant that the Catholic Church was the great harlot; Seventh Day Adventists insist that the mark of the beast is worshiping on Sunday while buying and selling on the Sabbath; in the 1960s/70s those ten kings ruling with the beast were going to be ten countries in the European Economic Community, in a sort of revived Roman Empire; nowadays the great dragon must be China as an emerging superpower. None of these has come even remotely close to the obviousness and degree of match-up between 'prophecy' and current events which would have been perceived by the people to whom it was actually addressed. But that's the beauty of apocalyptic literature, for those who are absolutely unwilling to acknowledge it as false prophecy: The vague symbolism can be made to mean pretty much anything you want it to mean... which of course makes it as useless in the 21st century as in the 1st.

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Post #285

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Re: Re:

Post #286

Post by Mithrae »

woodtick wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:33 pm [Replying to Mithrae in post #284]
Just a few comments...
The KJV has hundreds of 'poor' translations and that's true with the word TIME in Revelation 22:10.
The word 'time' is much better translated an ERA which began at the crucifixion and resurrection and ends at Christ return. (Some people call it the age of grace.) Better translated...

"for the era is approaching."
Fortunately I didn't use the KJV. Every single credible translation I usually check (NRSV, NASB, NKJV, NIV etc.) has "the time is near" or "the time is at hand." You are not a credible translator... but I understand the desire to protect your 'word of God' from its error.

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Post #287

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Re: Are we living in the last days?

Post #288

Post by elijahpne »

[Replying to Mithrae in post #31]

Note: All biblical quotations are from the New International Version (NIV) Bible.

You said:
"it's almost universally recognized that biblical eschatology requires the existence of a Jewish temple in Jerusalem"
Why need a Jewish temple again? To offer animal sacrifices for atonement of sins as before? That is no longer necessary. Jesus' sacrifice of himself has done away with that. As Hebrews 9:28 puts it: "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many.." And besides, as Paul eloquently puts it: "It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."- Heb 10:4

True, the sacrifice Christ made of himself was offered in a temple but not in a temple made with human hands.

Paul, after describing the Jewish temple and sacrifices, said in Hebrews 9:11, 12: "But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption." No need for animal sacrifices as Jesus' blood can atone for our sins once for all time.

Please take note the phrase "the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands." What is that?

Paul could not be referring to the physical temple in Jerusalem, because that was constructed with human hands and, also, because being of the tribe of Judah, not of Levi, he could not be a high priest (Hebrews 7:14). So he entered not a physical temple but a spiritual temple in heaven. Hebrews 9:24 says: "For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence ."

The true sanctuary, the temple, is in heaven itself. What physical temple can replace that?

If not for animal sacrifices then for what? For worship?

That is not necessary either. Worship acceptable to God no longer requires a geographical location. Jesus hinted at this in a conversation with a Samaritan woman at a well. The woman, knowing Jesus was a Jew, said: "Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” (John 4:20) In answer Jesus said: “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem." - John 4:21.

The earthly Jerusalem now has no more significance to true worship than any other earthly location.

The Bible speaks, though, of another Jerusalem, a heavenly Jerusalem, about which the apostle Paul was inspired to write:

Ga 4:26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.

This heavenly Jerusalem - the Jerusalem above - will be with us forever for from there Christ will rule in his heavenly kingdom sitting on God's throne just as the Davidic dynasty ruled from earthly Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 29:23).

Having said all that: Another Jewish temple may be built in earthly Jerusalem in the time of the end, but what significance would it have as far as true worship is concerned? It may be torn down again as it is not a divine concept but merely a product of human hands.

On the other hand, the spiritual temple in heavenly Jerusalem is eternal and beyond human reach.
......................................................

Isaiah 65:22 For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be
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Re: Are we living in the last days?

Post #289

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Re: Are we living in the last days?

Post #290

Post by elijahpne »

Gotta get this piece published before these last days, as ably described in this thread by otseng, come to it's logical conclusion - THE END of the AGE.

Lost in all these discussions is the role played by chronology in the outworking of God's purposes towards the earth - especially the timing of the appearance and reappearance of the Messiah which heralds, as we shall see later, the start of the last days.

Chronology - based on Daniel's prophecy of the 70 Weeks of Years (Daniel 9:24-27) - pinpointed exactly the Messiah's first appearance in the 1st century - 29 A.D. to be exact. A very well-researched scholarly paper at Academia.edu, (needs a registration) entitled "Herod the Great and Jesus: Chronological, Historical and Archaeological Evidence", pp. 83 - 106, 2015 Edition by Gerard Gertoux, chronicles this historical event.

If the Bible timed Jesus' first appearance exactly, why not his second? That Jesus will return is, of course, universally acknowledged amongst Christians and Bible scholars. At Hebrews 9:28 NIV , Paul said: "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time ..." not as a babe, but in kingly power, as alluded to in Jesus' illustration at Luke 19:12 NIV: 'He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return." ' - a claim Jesus even reiterated in answer to the high priest at Mark 14: 61,62 NIV: 'Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One? “I am;" said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” ' An important thing to note from Jesus' answer is that his return is unseen by our literal eyes inasmuch as clouds - used here in a metaphorical sense - would obscure vision.

Recall the question the Apostles asked Jesus as recorded at Matthew 24:3 NIV: "Tell us", they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming (or, more correctly "presence", Greek, pa·rou·siʹa) - and of the end (or conclusion, Greek, syn·teʹlei·a) of the age? ("world": KJV; "system of things": NWT)?" In effect what they were asking is when will Jesus return as a king? Note that in the Apostles' minds, Jesus' coming as a king and the last days seem inextricably linked. The sign they were asking encompasses both his return and the last days. And how right they were ...

In answer to the Apostles' query about the last days, Jesus stated at Matthew 24 that world conditions would deteriorate into war, food shortage, pestilence (deadly plague), and other causes of death. But note they are the same dire conditions depicted by the ride of three horsemen closely following the first riding on a white horse in the descriptive prophecy of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse at Revelation 6:2-8. In this prophecy, the rider of the white horse, who was leading the gallop, was first given a crown indicating he was made a king (Rev 6:2). That this rider is, no other than, Jesus himself will be very obvious if we compare this verse with Rev 19:11-16 where a rider is seen on a "white horse" and which, on his robe and thigh, was written the name "KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS."

The first rider on a white horse (Jesus) who was given the crown precedes the three horsemen of destruction in much the same way as the signs of the last days (syn·teʹlei·a) followed Jesus' coming or presence in kingdom power.

The end will not come, however, in one fell swoop - Why? Because there will be a concerted effort to save as many as possibly can through the preaching of the gospel (Matthew 24:14) about which the eminent scientist, Isaac Newton - recognizing that the end will not come in his day because he saw no preaching work being done - said:

"For the Gospel must be preached in all nations before the great tribulation, and end of the world. The palm-bearing multitude, which come out of this great tribulation, cannot be innumerable out of all the nations, unless they be made so by the preaching of the Gospel before it comes." Dan. 12:4; Matt. 24:14; Rev 7:9, 10 - w2009 8/15 p. 14 par. 10 Everlasting Life on Earth-A Hope Rediscovered (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009603#h=14)

True, Jesus himself said he did not know the end (Matthew 24:36) but that was the "te’los" - as in Matthew 24:14 "and then the end (Greek, te’los) will come" - not "syn·teʹlei·a" or last days which runs concurrently with his presence as king.

As for when Christ would return, consider the following: When Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE, God was moved to say: “Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was . . . A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin. The crown will not be restored until he to whom it rightly belongs shall come; to him I will give it.”(Ezekiel 21:25-37 NIV) From that year on, Jerusalem was under the domination (or trampling) by Gentile powers - first by the Babylonians then the Medo-Persians, the Greeks and the Romans. No one will sit on David's throne "until he to whom it rightly belongs shall come".

That one is, no other than, Christ Jesus, of whom the angel, announcing his future birth, said: “The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; and his kingdom will never end.” (Luke 1:32, 33 NIV). When? Jesus reveals, rather cryptically, when he said -

“Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles (which started in 607 BCE), until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." - Luke 21:24 NIV. The end of the Gentile Times and the start of the rule of the Son of Man necessarily occurs simultaneously as supported by the following observation:

Many see in Luke’s account a shift after Luke 21:24. Dr. Leon Morris notes: “Jesus goes on to speak of the times of the Gentiles. . . . In the opinion of most scholars attention now moves to the coming of the Son of man." Professor R. Ginns writes: “The Coming of the Son of Man—(Mt 24:29-31; Mk 13:24-27). The mention of the ‘times of the Gentiles’ provides an introduction to this theme; [Luke’s] perspective is now carried beyond the ruin of Jerusalem into the future." - w1994 2/15 p. 13 "What Will Be The Sign of Your presence?" (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1994122#h=35)

When would that grand event occur? Jesus had already shown Luke 21:24 that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw a tree of enormous height that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: “let him be given the mind of an animal (or beast), till seven times pass by for him.” (Daniel 4:10-16 NIV). Interestingly, "beasts" is sometimes used in the Bible to symbolize Gentile powers.

In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24;31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of “seven times.” How long a period is that?

Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal “1,260 days.” “Seven times” would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of “a day for a year,” the “seven times” would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King. —Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

Just as Jesus predicted, his “presence” as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of “the last days” of this present wicked system of things. — 2 Timothy 3:1-5

When the preaching is over (not when all the people are converted) then the end (te’los) will come.

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