Are we living in the last days?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20499
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 335 times
Contact:

Are we living in the last days?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

JehovahsWitness wrote: From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.
For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: Re:

Post #381

Post by Diagoras »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:02 am
Diagoras wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:46 pmYou think there’s a ‘way out’ of death, then.
That's what I have read.
There’s a whole other debate there, but maybe not directly relevant to the main topic. Happy to leave that to another day.

I have read exactly what death is, it is not unknown to me and I do not fear it. Both science and the Bible are in agreement. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all...there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going." - Ecc 9:5, 10
Do science and the Bible carry equal weight on this matter in your opinion? I ask because such concepts as a soul and resurrection are examples of where science and the Bible differ widely.

2timothy316 wrote:When Christendom lost it's ability to burn, hang, and torture the fearmongering grip it had loosened. It still works on many people uneducated and well educated. There are people with PHDs in all sorts of fields that still believe in hell. Don't underestimate the power of tradition and peer/family pressure.
I’m not exactly sure of what point you’re making here. It sounds to me like you acknowledge Christianity used to use fear to convert people in the past, and now it’s more likely to be ‘tradition and peer pressure’. Have I got that right? I agree that many well-educated people are Christian, but I was never attempting to prove otherwise.

I wrote:For this to have any practical use to us, you’ll have to be a lot more specific.
You wrote:All of what is to come is in this thread.
Perhaps you would summarise? And do you just mean your posts, or are there others who have made equally specific claims?

2timothy316 wrote:I already know the numbers will be few for life and many for death.
It’s not made clear how you ‘know’ this. Yes, you’ve quoted a biblical passage, but it’s not one upon which ‘science and the Bible agree’. Someone who places more weight on science might ‘know’ something else with as much certainty.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post #382

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:18 pm ....such concepts as a soul and resurrection are examples of where science and the Bible differ widely.

Really? What does "science" say about the concept of "resurrection"? Reference or screenshot would be appreciated.



JW






Image
source : https://nypost.com/2018/01/06/scientist ... -immortal/
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9342
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 883 times
Been thanked: 1240 times

Re: Re:

Post #383

Post by Clownboat »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:26 pm [Replying to Clownboat in post #377]

Your opinion of the future has been noted.
Let what comes in the future prove who is right and who is wrong.
It seems you are not here to debate, but to fearmonger. "Let what comes in the future..." You will not scare me in to belief out of some fear of what might happen in the future. A true god would do better then the terrorists and that is my point that you are not addressing. I'm guessing you realize this as well.

A shame, but that is religion for you for far too many believers.
I was a believer for 2 decades that grew up under threats born out of fear. Lake of fire and all that. Works great on children. If I can escape, perhaps someday you will be set free as well?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: Re:

Post #384

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #384]

Your opinion has been noted.

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: Re:

Post #385

Post by 2timothy316 »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:18 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:02 am
Diagoras wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:46 pmYou think there’s a ‘way out’ of death, then.
That's what I have read.
There’s a whole other debate there, but maybe not directly relevant to the main topic. Happy to leave that to another day.

I have read exactly what death is, it is not unknown to me and I do not fear it. Both science and the Bible are in agreement. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all...there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going." - Ecc 9:5, 10
Do science and the Bible carry equal weight on this matter in your opinion? I ask because such concepts as a soul and resurrection are examples of where science and the Bible differ widely.
Anytime I found a discrepancy between the Bible and science, either I interpreting the Bible wrong or a science finding wrong. I also have to consider my source for the definition.
Your definitions of soul and resurrection, who taught you those things and do they have a love of truth or just love of being right? What do you want? Do you want truth or just to be right? This will also determine what and who you will listen to. According to the Bible, a soul is a life. When the life ends so does the soul. Matthew 10:28 says a soul can be destroyed, therefore a soul is not indestructible. The Bible references dead souls or dead bodies. Le 19:28; 21:1, 11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6; Hag 2:13; compare Nu 19:11, 13. So science and the Bible are not far apart, religious doctrines on the other hand is another story.
2timothy316 wrote:When Christendom lost it's ability to burn, hang, and torture the fearmongering grip it had loosened. It still works on many people uneducated and well educated. There are people with PHDs in all sorts of fields that still believe in hell. Don't underestimate the power of tradition and peer/family pressure.
I’m not exactly sure of what point you’re making here. It sounds to me like you acknowledge Christianity used to use fear to convert people in the past, and now it’s more likely to be ‘tradition and peer pressure’. Have I got that right? I agree that many well-educated people are Christian, but I was never attempting to prove otherwise.
I seemed in your comment that fear works 'less well' on educated people but that is not the case. Fear comes from many other angles for a person to latch on to a belief. I can't count how many people say to me, "I was raise (insert religion) and will die that way." Fear of change, family pressure, or even political pressure. I know some that keep a belief simply because they fear being ostracized by their political party or even the people they go out drinking with.
I wrote:For this to have any practical use to us, you’ll have to be a lot more specific.
You wrote:All of what is to come is in this thread.
Perhaps you would summarise? And do you just mean your posts, or are there others who have made equally specific claims?
That would be a negative. If you have interest then read the thread. To summarize would just lead to questions that more than likely have already been asked and answered.
2timothy316 wrote:I already know the numbers will be few for life and many for death.
It’s not made clear how you ‘know’ this. Yes, you’ve quoted a biblical passage, but it’s not one upon which ‘science and the Bible agree’. Someone who places more weight on science might ‘know’ something else with as much certainty.
That would depend on the scientist. If we asked a epidemiologists, a biologist, a physicist, a sociologists and an anthropologist the future of mankind I highly doubt there would be a single answer all would agree with. There are more questions in science than answers, that is one thing I think they would all agree on.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9342
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 883 times
Been thanked: 1240 times

Re: Re:

Post #386

Post by Clownboat »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:47 pm [Replying to Clownboat in post #384]

Your opinion has been noted.
This needed not be said again and should be an obvious point to us all.
It's a shame you once again avoided debate, but I did more then just state an opinion. I illustrated it.

Copy/paste: It seems you are not here to debate, but to fearmonger.

Readers, decide for yourselves if this is debate or fearmongering taking place. Beliefs should be true on their own merits, not because you are scared to die and burn in an imagined lake of fire or what have you.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6607 times
Been thanked: 3209 times

Re: Re:

Post #387

Post by brunumb »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:23 pm If we asked a epidemiologists, a biologist, a physicist, a sociologists and an anthropologist the future of mankind I highly doubt there would be a single answer all would agree with. There are more questions in science than answers, that is one thing I think they would all agree on.
In what way is anyone from any of those disciplines qualified to predict the future of mankind? No one can do that. We have been faced with countless questions from the beginning of humanity and science has done a good job of answering many of them. Not answering all of them is not a failure, just an indication of the limitations of human beings. When we look at religion on the other hand, it has provided us with no answers to our questions. Only unsupported opinions.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: Re:

Post #388

Post by Diagoras »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:23 pm Your definitions of soul and resurrection, who taught you those things and do they have a love of truth or just love of being right? What do you want? Do you want truth or just to be right?
Too many independent sources over many years to fully list.

I’m not sure that ‘truth’ and ‘being right’ are mutually exclusive, as you seem to imply. I simply want to understand. Biology, chemistry and physics offer reasons for why a dead body can’t be brought back to life. Those reasons are testable, all the way down from defining ‘brain death’ to the chemical processes involved in rigor mortis and tissue decomposition. Religion on the other hand, provides just stories with no explanation, just various interpretations of scripture.

2timothy316 wrote:I know some that keep a belief simply because they fear being ostracized by their political party or even the people they go out drinking with.
Being part of many ‘in-groups’ lends itself to fear of ostracisation, certainly. We’re in agreement on that.

2timothy316 wrote:If you have interest then read the thread.
Not that much, to be honest.

2timothy316 wrote:There are more questions in science than answers, that is one thing I think they would all agree on.
To put this in context, why should asking a variety of different scientists about the future and getting different answers be any more surprising than asking a variety of different religious leaders the same question? Science is simply a method of investigation, presupposing nothing (if practiced properly).

There are more answers in religion than questions. Unfortunately, some of the answers are contradictory or nonsensical. That might invite more questions from some, but it’s unfortunate (in my view) that the type of fear mentioned above often discourages such thought.

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: Re:

Post #389

Post by Diagoras »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:44 amWhat does "science" say about the concept of "resurrection"?
It says that the physical processes that occur on death such as autolysis are generally well understood and offer no plausible pathway to resurrection. For example, see:

https://www.aftermath.com/content/human-decomposition/

The article you put up in your post theorises about future technology that might be able to be used before death to ‘preserve’ life, either by freezing (like pressing ‘pause’), or transferring information from a living brain to an artificial one.

No reputable science is suggesting that a dead body could be brought back to life by freezing it or ‘uploading’ it.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post #390

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:11 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:44 amWhat does "science" say about the concept of "resurrection"?
It says that the physical processes that occur on death .....{snip: I didn't as about death}


I do believe I asked for a screenshot or a reference to a scientific article discussing the concept of resurrection (not death), do you have one? The article you posted made no statement whatsoever about returning someone that is dead back to life one way or the other.
Diagoras wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:18 pm ....such concepts as a soul and resurrection are examples of where science and the Bible differ widely.

You claim that science and the bible differ widely regarding concepts such as .... resurrection so I am asking you to prove that by providing scientific articles discussing the concept of resurrection. Do you have any evidence to prove your claim?

I made no claim so am under no obligation to provide any material to support anything.

Over to you,



JW



Trending Science: Will we be able to resurrect the dead?
Scientists have successfully restored some brain functions of pigs hours after their death.
https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/125 ... t-the-dead
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply