Another fanciful tale

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Zzyzx
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Another fanciful tale

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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Here is another fanciful tale about the sun that was not reported by anyone other than Bible writers:
Joshua 10:12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.� 13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!
Most glaring defects:

1. Physical impossibility of Earth stopping rotation then starting again AND rotation is 1000 miles per hour at the equator. Atmosphere and oceans would not stop with the solid Earth – thus, winds of hundreds of miles per hour and oceans sloshing over coastal areas.

2. No astronomers or observers worldwide noticed or recorded that remarkable event they could not have missed.

Of course, whoever wrote Joshua may not have had a way of knowing that the Earth orbits the Sun, not vice versa – thus making the tale impossible. Modern people, however, should recognize it as fantasy.

WHY would any informed, educated person accept as true a tale of the sun and moon stopping / standing still (or a star doing so in the nativity tale) -- as anything other than fantasy? Do they not know that Earth rotation causes the appearance of sun, moon and stars moon movement / rising and setting?

WHY give any credibility to a source that presents that tale as true?
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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #11

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 9 by 1213]
Because it can’t be proven that earth rotates, I think it is possible earth is not rotating and it is for example sun and moon that rotate around earth, or something else that seems to us that there is rotation.
No. We know that Earth rotates on its axis and we have mountains of evidence in the form of observations to support it. To argue against all that in order to prop up an ancient fairy story just boggles the mind. The sun never stood still in the sky no matter how much faith one puts in the Bible.
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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #12

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: … We know that Earth rotates on its axis and we have mountains of evidence in the form of observations to support it. ...
What observation shows earth rotates and is not a matter of belief? One example is enough. And please, give an example that doesn’t depend on what point of view one chooses.

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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #13

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote:
brunumb wrote: … We know that Earth rotates on its axis and we have mountains of evidence in the form of observations to support it. ...
What observation shows earth rotates and is not a matter of belief? One example is enough. And please, give an example that doesn’t depend on what point of view one chooses.
Rather than continue an inane exchange, I will leave it in the hands of readers to evaluate the merits of what has been presented and to relate it to their knowledge of the real world.

Thank you for presenting readers with a religionist's perspective on these matters.
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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #14

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote:
brunumb wrote: … We know that Earth rotates on its axis and we have mountains of evidence in the form of observations to support it. ...
What observation shows earth rotates and is not a matter of belief? One example is enough. And please, give an example that doesn’t depend on what point of view one chooses.
If you believe that Earth does not rotate on its axis, so be it. If your religious beliefs require that you dismiss scientific knowledge in defense of absurd biblical tales it is not my responsibility to educate you on the matter.
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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #15

Post by Zzyzx »

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brunumb wrote: If your religious beliefs require that you dismiss scientific knowledge in defense of absurd biblical tales it is not my responsibility to educate you on the matter.
I see little evidence that Apologists have any sincere desire or ability to learn anything that contradicts their mythology (or do anything other than ignore, deny, excuse or play word games).

A favored tactic seems to be, "You can't prove anything to me no matter what evidence you present. Therefore, I should not be expected to prove to you that Bible tales are true."

Of course, no mention is made that the 'proof' (or 'evidence') offered to support Bible mythology is nothing more than unverifiable ancient tales, unverifiable testimonials, and various opinions. 'Just take my word for it (or his or this book)'
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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #16

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: … If your religious beliefs require that you dismiss scientific knowledge in defense of absurd biblical tales it is not my responsibility to educate you on the matter.
I just want to say; my beliefs don’t require dismissing scientific knowledge. I just have no reason to adopt scientific beliefs, if they are not well supported by real scientific observations.

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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #17

Post by Difflugia »

1213 wrote:What observation shows earth rotates and is not a matter of belief? One example is enough. And please, give an example that doesn’t depend on what point of view one chooses.
The speed of satellites (natural and man-made) in a stable orbit is a function of the gravitational constant and distance from the Earth and is straightforward to calculate. The apparent velocity of a satellite from the surface of the Earth is the sum of the satellite's actual velocity and the velocity of the observation point. If the Earth were not rotatating, then a satellite's apparent speed would always match its calculated orbital speed. An observable effect of this is that the orbital speed of satellites travelling in the direction of Earth's rotation (west to east) appears slower from a point on the moving ground than one moving opposite the direction of rotation.

Geostationary satellites appear from the surface of the Earth to have velocities of zero (no speed, no direction). If the Earth were not rotating, then their actual velocities would also be zero. Unless our knowledge of gravity is grievously wrong, they would fall straight toward the Earth.

Spoiler: They don't.

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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #18

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote: I just want to say; my beliefs don’t require dismissing scientific knowledge. I just have no reason to adopt scientific beliefs, if they are not well supported by real scientific observations.
Do you have scientific background and experience adequate as a basis to evaluate information available?
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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #19

Post by 1213 »

Difflugia wrote:The speed of satellites (natural and man-made) in a stable orbit is a function of the gravitational constant and distance from the Earth and is straightforward to calculate. The apparent velocity of a satellite from the surface of the Earth is the sum of the satellite's actual velocity and the velocity of the observation point. If the Earth were not rotatating, then a satellite's apparent speed would always match its calculated orbital speed. An observable effect of this is that the orbital speed of satellites travelling in the direction of Earth's rotation (west to east) appears slower from a point on the moving ground than one moving opposite the direction of rotation.
Thank you, nice try. The speed difference could also be explained by gravitational pull of sun and moon traveling around earth.
Difflugia wrote:Geostationary satellites appear from the surface of the Earth to have velocities of zero (no speed, no direction). If the Earth were not rotating, then their actual velocities would also be zero. Unless our knowledge of gravity is grievously wrong, they would fall straight toward the Earth.
I think this is actually a god point. Not necessary enough to make me to believe earth rotates, but if there is really geostationary satellites it is interesting how they could remain steady, if earth doesn’t rotate. One explanation would be that they are just stopped there and no force needed to move it, far enough from earth to not drop. Do you know how they are set to the position they have?

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Re: Another fanciful tale

Post #20

Post by William »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Here is another fanciful tale about the sun that was not reported by anyone other than Bible writers:
Joshua 10:12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.� 13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!
Most glaring defects:

1. Physical impossibility of Earth stopping rotation then starting again AND rotation is 1000 miles per hour at the equator. Atmosphere and oceans would not stop with the solid Earth – thus, winds of hundreds of miles per hour and oceans sloshing over coastal areas.

2. No astronomers or observers worldwide noticed or recorded that remarkable event they could not have missed.

Of course, whoever wrote Joshua may not have had a way of knowing that the Earth orbits the Sun, not vice versa – thus making the tale impossible. Modern people, however, should recognize it as fantasy.

WHY would any informed, educated person accept as true a tale of the sun and moon stopping / standing still (or a star doing so in the nativity tale) -- as anything other than fantasy? Do they not know that Earth rotation causes the appearance of sun, moon and stars moon movement / rising and setting?

WHY give any credibility to a source that presents that tale as true?

William:1: Is only impossible if we do not exist within a Simulated Reality. Scientific research on that possibility is - perhaps strangely - lacking on that.
Certainly if the ignoring of that allows for the only other possibility, then indeed it is impossible.
However, if we do exist within a Created Reality, then it is likely possible to stop the sun in it's tracks, although to what degree this might adversely (or not) affect the Simulations Inhabitants...I don't know.

Having stated as much, if other Cultures Fireside Yarns show a similar story...and one which springs to mind is Maui catching the Sun in his net I will take that as contributing to the evidence that something strangely out of the ordinary happened one 'non-day' in the past...

Happy Earth Day To Us All.

Speaking of 'Fireside Yarns' here is a real doozey.


Image

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