What would you do if you were YHWH?

[William]

If you were YHWH, would you consider now to be a good time to give Jesus the nod to return to Earth?

If yes, why - and if no - why not?

[Divine Insight]

So would you send Jesus back to Earth or do something different, or do nothing at all?

Apparently you haven't read my post in its entirety before you quickly replied.

First off, if I'm YHWH then I am Jesus.

Secondly, since you're now asking me what I would do, I need to be a Jesus who finally wised up. My question would then be, "What took me so long to wise up?"

Generally the saying goes "If I were you , I would [_______]" and that is the context of understanding to which I was asking the question.

Well, again. The question assumes that I would have been as stupid as the Biblical God in the first place.

If a child molester asks me, "If you were me, what would you do in this context?"

Well, the question's meaningless because my answer would be, "I wouldn't have done the things you did in the first place. So I'm not even sure what to tell you to do at this point as your situation doesn't apply to me. My only advice would be to confess that what you've done was terribly wrong and hopefully comprehend the meaning of that."

So I guess that would be my advice to YHWH as well.

Yes - that was what the OPQ was asking for. What would you do.

So, would you have Jesus with you (since the question involved him) ?

Based on my understanding of Christianity if I'm YHWH then I am Jesus already. Christianity is supposed to be monotheism. It's not supposed to have multiple Gods.

Well - you could if you were YHWH (given the omni-nature he is attributed with having.)

What if having done this repenting and fixing the situation, most human beings decided not to forgive you anyway? Would that matter to you, or would you be happy enough that you put things right?

To begin with you are requiring that I was once a foolish creator who finally came to his senses.

Secondly, I could hardly expect humans to forgive me. To the contrary I think it would be far more realistic for them to pity me. And for that I couldn't blame them.

It's a ridiculous question.

Well we exist within the ridiculous, so - as can be seen by your many words in answer - such can be asked and answered.

What do you mean that we exist within the ridiculous? You seem to be assuming that there actually is a God who was an inept creator.

If the world is just a natural accident then there's nothing ridiculous about it. It just is what it is. It would only be ridiculous is if a conscious sentient entity had created us, and jealously demanded that we worship him because he's supposedly perfect, while still have created a really screwed up reality.

That would be ridiculous.

If there is no God, then there's nothing ridiculous about an accidentally reality.

I am wondering if the answers are sensible. I am interested in the propensity of people to be critical of how things are done, but seem totally unable to provide any better alternatives.

Are you not reading the posts?

Here's quite a few better alternative that I have repeated on many occasions:

1. As an omnipotent creator don't screw things up in the first place.
2. Don't design animals to eat each other, make them all vegetarians instead.
3. Don't design horrible diseases in the first place.
4. Don't design a world where all possible sources of energy result in pollution.
5. Don't design humans who are incapable of being good.
6. Don't let evil demons corrupt your creation.
7. Don't come to earth thousands of years later pretending to be your son in an effort to try to pin the blame for your failing onto humans.

I can go on an on.

So if you claim that I don't have better alternatives then you haven't been paying attention. Apparently you just reply to my posts without truly reading them.

Overall your answer gives the impression that YHWH should not have even created this universe...or at least, should have avoided placing life within it.

Would that be a fair comment - considering you did your best to cover all the bases?

I did cover all the bases. And yes, YHWH should not have created this universe as it is.

OR, if that's the best he could do, then he should have made it crystal clear at the onset that he is an extremely limited creator who couldn't do any better.

What forced this God to create animals that eat each other and even prey on humans when they can?

Apparently you aren't paying attention to anything I post.

I've given you the answers that you apparently have either chosen to ignore, or couldn't comprehend. I have no clue which is the case, but I've answered all these questions and covered all the details.

Instead of asking me what I might do to try to repair all the mistakes YHWH made why not ask me how I would have created a universe from scratch?

I can guarantee it wouldn't contain animals that eat each other. It wouldn't contain horrible diseases. And it wouldn't only have fuel sources of energy that pollute the world.

So there's 3 things right off the bat I wouldn't have done.

I also wouldn't command people to multiply and not warn them that the Planet is finite and can only hold so many people.

In fact, if anything is possible, why bother making the world finite at all?

Was that another limitation of this God?

Why do we have to reproduce using the same organs we use to eliminate disgusting wastes from our body?

Why do we even need to make disgusting waste material at all? Why couldn't a human body be 100% efficient and just turn all food it intakes into pure energy?

Does this God have limitations in what he can design?

Apparently so. But Christian theology rejects the idea that their God is limited in what he can do. They claim he's omnipotent, etc.

So I've answered your question perfectly. And fully.

If I was an omnipotent creator I wouldn't have created all these limitations that would clearly not be a limitation for for a truly omnipotent creator.

The whole concept of a supposedly omnipotent God is a concept that cannot be made to work, UNLESS, we accept that this God placed all these limitations on his creation himself.

But then we need to ask "Why?"

Why would an omnipotent creator create all these terribly limited things on purpose?

We certainly can't turn to the Bible or Christianity for the answer to that question, because according to them, "With God all things are possible". So there's no excuse for their God to behave in such inept ways.

So yes, the entire idea of YHWH is indeed ridiculous.

[Zzyzx]

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How do you suppose the world leaders would be able to convince the general populace to go along with this plan of action?

I doubt that it would take any convincing since weapons of war disappeared worldwide.

So - weapons which are not able to be used for warring purposes have now disappeared. Those would have to include weapons which are used to hunt with, because such can be used to kill others.

You have left the clean up to world leaders, taken all things which can be used as weapons of war off the planet.

The planet now resembles a lifeless desert, as far as I can tell.

The term 'weapons of war' has specific meaning. It does not include everything that could be used as a weapon or hunting device. A pitchfork or walking stick that could be used as a weapon does NOT classify as weapons of war.

I trust that readers understand even if opposition debaters have difficulty with the concept.

[William]

[Replying to post 10 by 1213]

One reason why I think it would be right time for Jesus to come is this:

Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold.

That seems a good point until I take into consideration Teds points about a pre-existing argument which appears to have accumulated in the formation of this universe, and spirit beings acting out said argument through human avatars.

It appears to me more clearly than previously, that the argument between YHWH and Satan began at that event, although perhaps it simply continued, as Ted claims.

Satan is YHWHs accuser, and thus if there is accusation hurled at YHWH, it comes from - can be traced back to that source.

Non-theists are those who accuse YHWH, and I cannot see how their accusations have merit as the underlying complaint appears to be that YHWH placed life into this universe.

Perhaps from this, they do not give any better alternative to the worlds problems than theists do. But where theists have an edge is that they believe in YHWH enough that eventually YHWH will hatch his plan and remove the actual problem - YHWHs accusers, who have been having a field day throughout history trying to eliminate YHWH in the beliefs he is good, through the accusation YHWH is evil.

If I were YHWH in such a position, I would allow for the accuser to have his day in court, and listen intently to what his complaints about me are.

That is why I would have created this universe. To hear the case against me.

My accuser sends an envoy into my creation and through that, accusers me of lying to them. They believe my accuser and find themselves naked, and not sure who told them they were naked....

Satan then turns to me and say's "See? I told you so."

I get his point but he doesn't convince me that he is right about me...


Perhaps I was trying to fudge the results if I preferred that they stayed within the garden forever...but it was not my intention...Satan foiled my plan by interfering and cheating and then accusing me of being the one who did that....because I 'allowed' him to do so...he is my accuser after-all...his problem is why I created him because he doesn't know, and then acts out why he thinks I created him...

So I give him every opportunity to see me as more than this and he accusers me of interfering...

I turn to his followers - to those who accuse me - and offer them my hand, and they offer me back their middle finger...

How much patience should I invest in this, before I call *time* and proceed with the next phase.... that is a good question...is it pointless and wishful thinking on my part that my accusers will ever stop accusing me, and learn to love me for who I Am?

If I were YHWH, I would be thinking along those lines....maybe enough is enough....May it is time...

[William]

[Replying to post 12 by Zzyzx]

The term 'weapons of war' has specific meaning. It does not include everything that could be used as a weapon or hunting device. A pitchfork or walking stick that could be used as a weapon does NOT classify as weapons of war.

I trust that readers understand even if opposition debaters have difficulty with the concept.

My point about that argument is that the human being is that which wields the weapons and creates the wars.

So - if it is not objects which are laying around or specifically created for other uses not associated with war, it would have to refer to the attitude within a number of human beings which can and do use what is laying around or designed for other purposes, as weapons to wage war with. They will even used their own bodies, if the can't find a rock...

Thus, those people would be removed as part of the "removal of weapons of war".

How thin do you think the herd would be, after that event?

Possibly with the warriors removed, those left would be far easier for the world leaders to persuade.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 14 by William]

Your argument keeps getting more ridiculous after running off the track trying to make everything into 'weapons of war' -- now trying to eliminate people who hold the weapons.

Thanks for the demo.

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

First off, if I'm YHWH then I am Jesus.

Secondly, since you're now asking me what I would do, I need to be a Jesus who finally wised up. My question would then be, "What took me so long to wise up?"

Okay - lets see if your answer helps me understand...

Well, again. The question assumes that I would have been as stupid as the Biblical God in the first place.

If a child molester asks me, "If you were me, what would you do in this context?"

Well, the question's meaningless because my answer would be, "I wouldn't have done the things you did in the first place. So I'm not even sure what to tell you to do at this point as your situation doesn't apply to me. My only advice would be to confess that what you've done was terribly wrong and hopefully comprehend the meaning of that."

So I guess that would be my advice to YHWH as well.

Okay. Just to clarify - other posters haven't missed it - the question does not assume anything about you or YHWH. It simply allows one the opportunity to empathize if one is able to do so.

Based on my understanding of Christianity if I'm YHWH then I am Jesus already. Christianity is supposed to be monotheism. It's not supposed to have multiple Gods.

Okay. So you are the entity who decides if you should return or not. What would you decide?

To begin with you are requiring that I was once a foolish creator who finally came to his senses.

Yes. This is because I am bouncing off your own accusations about YHWH - going along with you.
Therefore it is you who is requiring this of yourself as to what you would do in relation to returning to the planet.

Secondly, I could hardly expect humans to forgive me. To the contrary I think it would be far more realistic for them to pity me. And for that I couldn't blame them.

So then what? Would you offer your assistance or leave the planet again?

What do you mean that we exist within the ridiculous?

It seems to me to be a most ridiculous position to be existing in. if I am to be intellectually honest.

You seem to be assuming that there actually is a God...

What gave that away? Was it the thread title or the thread subject?

...who was an inept creator.

Well, perhaps YHWH created it to appear that way? In which case I couldn't think of it as an inept creation.
Would you have created it differently or perhaps not at all? That is the underlying purpose of the thread topic...

If there is no God, then there's nothing ridiculous about an accidentally reality.

To discuss such, is not the purpose of this particular thread. It is off-topic...

This thread is for the purpose of exploring what you would do if you were YHWH.

Here's quite a few better alternative that I have repeated on many occasions:

1. As an omnipotent creator don't screw things up in the first place.
2. Don't design animals to eat each other, make them all vegetarians instead.
3. Don't design horrible diseases in the first place.
4. Don't design a world where all possible sources of energy result in pollution.
5. Don't design humans who are incapable of being good.
6. Don't let evil demons corrupt your creation.
7. Don't come to earth thousands of years later pretending to be your son in an effort to try to pin the blame for your failing onto humans.

I can go on an on.

So if you claim that I don't have better alternatives then you haven't been paying attention. Apparently you just reply to my posts without truly reading them.

But our existence in this universe is as it is. What you are describing is are alternatives you would create if you were YHWH, and that couldn't exist in this universe.
You would need to create another type of universe in order for that to be enabled.

Arguing that you are using such as an example to underline why your don't personally think this universe is a creation, is not the purpose of this thread and therefore isn't good argument.

The question is specific to this universe, as things are. Please keep on the main track.

I did cover all the bases. And yes, YHWH should not have created this universe as it is.

OR, if that's the best he could do, then he should have made it crystal clear at the onset that he is an extremely limited creator who couldn't do any better.

To whom? To Adam and Eve? They appear to be ignorant of good and evil things and YHWH appears to have done the best he could. How would you convey such information to Adam and Eve? Make them aware of good and evil?

Make them aware that animals preying on animals is 'evil'? Show them 'evil' things in the creation? Tell them they are naked? Send someone else to tell them they are naked?

Seems to me that your argument is that the creation is evil the way it is. Unless there is no creator, in which case, it is not 'good' or 'evil' it just is what it is.

So my question has to be - if it isn't evil in reality, why should anyone argue that it has to be evil if it was created?

And that whoever created it has to be accused of being evil/inept/deserving contempt etc.

Why would such argument convince me to become and accuser of YHWH myself and spurn the very idea of being in a creation?

So far your list of how you would do things describes some heavenly place...that you would create...not forgetting that YHWH is rumored to have created such a place as well...

[William]

[Replying to post 15 by Zzyzx]

My argument is valid and does not run off track. But I am willing to put the weapons of war you mentioned that as YHWH you would make disappear. What of my other observations I made in reply to your post? Do you think these too are 'off track'?

[Divine Insight]

Okay - lets see if your answer helps me understand...

Based on your continued response I don't believe there is anything that could help you understand.

I also agree with Zzyzx that some debaters clearly refuse to understand and constantly try to twist the words of others to mean things they never intended. And as Zxyzx suggests, this is most likely obvious to the vast majority of rational readers.

Okay. Just to clarify - other posters haven't missed it - the question does not assume anything about you or YHWH. It simply allows one the opportunity to empathize if one is able to do so.

Perhaps you missed it, but I did empathize with this hypothetical fictional scenario. I expressed pity for the God who is so inept, and I also empathize with the humans who are being accused of the mess by those who believe in this cartoon God character.

So I've already taken the opportunity to empathize with this ridiculous scenario.

Okay. So you are the entity who decides if you should return or not. What would you decide?

This is as ignorant as insinuating to someone, "So you're the one who beats your wife? What would you decide to do the next time you're with her?"

You need to keep in mind William that you are the one who is concerned with the fictitious God who beats his wife.

I thought I made it clear that I would never be that God in the first place. Once again I can only assume that you are incapable of comprehending my posts.

To begin with you are requiring that I was once a foolish creator who finally came to his senses.

Yes. This is because I am bouncing off your own accusations about YHWH - going along with you.
Therefore it is you who is requiring this of yourself as to what you would do in relation to returning to the planet.

Excuse me?

Sorry William, but once again you clearly aren't paying attention to anything I post. You are asking what I would do if I was a fictitious God character who purposefully created a dog-eat-dog world.

This isn't something I made up. You know as well as I do that animals eat each other. The world if filled with dangerous diseases, and most sources of fuel and energy cause pollution.

If your fictitious God were to exist, it would necessarily need to have created all those things.

So I'm not making any accusations about YHWH. I'm just pointing out what would necessarily need to be true if YHWH were indeed real.

Apparently you are incapable of comprehending this simple truth of reality.

So then what? Would you offer your assistance or leave the planet again?[/quote'

Once again, your scenario is dishonest and underhanded. You are demanding that I already have all the negative and ignorant characteristics of your fictitious God.

Where was your mind when you read the parts of my previous posts where I pointed out that I wouldn't have made all these stupid mistakes in the first place?

Not paying attention yet again?

You seem to be assuming that there actually is a God...

What gave that away? Was it the thread title or the thread subject?

And so now you are asking people to say what they would do AFTER They had already done all the ignorant and stupid things your proposed creator God had done?

Didn't I already address this William?

I said that I would never have been that stupid.

I even offered to humor your question, and suggested that if I had been that ignorant God character, and I finally came to my senses to be who I am now, then I would ask humanity to forgive me for my previous sickness. And I would do everything I could to make up for my horrible mistakes.

And I wouldn't hold it against humans if they were disappointed in me and even upset with me. They would certainly have every right to feel that way.

I've covered every scenario you've asked for. Yet you don't seem to have the ability to comprehend the answers.

...who was an inept creator.

Well, perhaps YHWH created it to appear that way? In which case I couldn't think of it as an inept creation.
Would you have created it differently or perhaps not at all? That is the underlying purpose of the thread topic...

Duh?

Didn't I already answer these questions? Apparently you don't even read my posts, or if you do you don't comprehend them at all.

I already explained in detail how I would have created it differently. Go back and try re-reading my posts.

I also even said that if I discovered that I was truly inept and could not create a decent world, then I wouldn't bother creating one at all.

Finally, I suggest that any God who is inept should at least explain his ineptitude from the beginning. I don't recall having ever read anything in the fables of YHWH where YHWH confesses that he's inept and there are many things he cannot do. To the contrary theists who claim that YHWH exists decree that he's perfect and that there is nothing he cannot do.

If there is no God, then there's nothing ridiculous about an accidentally reality.

To discuss such, is not the purpose of this particular thread. It is off-topic...

This thread is for the purpose of exploring what you would do if you were YHWH.

If I where YHWH I'd probably commit suicide and wish I had never existed.

That would be the best thing that such an inept God could do.

Who does an inept God turn to for help?

He can hardly pray to a higher God for help. So he'd be in pretty sad shape.

Here's quite a few better alternative that I have repeated on many occasions:

1. As an omnipotent creator don't screw things up in the first place.
2. Don't design animals to eat each other, make them all vegetarians instead.
3. Don't design horrible diseases in the first place.
4. Don't design a world where all possible sources of energy result in pollution.
5. Don't design humans who are incapable of being good.
6. Don't let evil demons corrupt your creation.
7. Don't come to earth thousands of years later pretending to be your son in an effort to try to pin the blame for your failing onto humans.

I can go on an on.

So if you claim that I don't have better alternatives then you haven't been paying attention. Apparently you just reply to my posts without truly reading them.

But our existence in this universe is as it is. What you are describing is are alternatives you would create if you were YHWH, and that couldn't exist in this universe.
You would need to create another type of universe in order for that to be enabled.

Arguing that you are using such as an example to underline why your don't personally think this universe is a creation, is not the purpose of this thread and therefore isn't good argument.

The question is specific to this universe, as things are. Please keep on the main track.

Again, your question amounts to accusing someone of being a wife beater and then asking them what they would do now that they have a second chance?

About all he could do at that point is apologize to his wife and hope and pray that he has changed his character and won't do it again.

It's your question that's ridiculous William.

I did cover all the bases. And yes, YHWH should not have created this universe as it is.

OR, if that's the best he could do, then he should have made it crystal clear at the onset that he is an extremely limited creator who couldn't do any better.

To whom? To Adam and Eve? They appear to be ignorant of good and evil things and YHWH appears to have done the best he could. How would you convey such information to Adam and Eve? Make them aware of good and evil?

You say, "YHWH appears to have done the best he could"

Where do you get that idea?

There is nothing in the Bible that even remotely suggests that YHWH even tried to help Adam and Eve out at all. Period.

You need to start writing your own fictional stories about a God if you want to make claims about the God that are actually contained within the story.

Make them aware that animals preying on animals is 'evil'?

Didn't he design Adam and Eve to have empathy? They should have already been able to tell that animals that are being eaten alive are not enjoying the situation.

Show them 'evil' things in the creation?

Absolutely! And besides, if God created creation, then why are there any evil things in it in the first place William?

Tell them they are naked? Send someone else to tell them they are naked?

What's wrong with being naked?

And if this God thinks that being naked is wrong, they why did God create Adam and Eve without clothes in the first place?

The Biblical stories are beyond ridiculous William.

If God created Adam and Eve naked, and it's wrong to be naked, then who's fault is that? Clearly it would be God's fault.

Seems to me that your argument is that the creation is evil the way it is. Unless there is no creator, in which case, it is not 'good' or 'evil' it just is what it is.

Our world would indeed contain evil if it was purposefully created. Obviously if there is no creator, then calling things that we don't like "evil" is nothing more than a subjective judgement on our part. In a natural universe there can be no evil. All that can exist are things that some people who might exist within the universe don't like.

So my question has to be - if it isn't evil in reality, why should anyone argue that it has to be evil if it was created?

Because if it was intentionally created by a sentient mind then it was done on purpose with malice.

And that whoever created it has to be accused of being evil/inept/deserving contempt etc.

Unless you don't mind seeing your babies eaten by alligators, or burned to death by volcanoes, or drowned by tsunamis, ON PURPOSE because a malicious mind designed the universe to be that way.

Can you not understand the difference between something being done on purpose by a sentient mind, and something just happening by pure accident?

Why would such argument convince me to become and accuser of YHWH myself and spurn the very idea of being in a creation?

Because YHWH would need to have created all those thing intentionally.

So far your list of how you would do things describes some heavenly place...that you would create...not forgetting that YHWH is rumored to have created such a place as well...

Well, if it's possible to create a heavenly place, why not just do it?

Why bother creating a hell too, or even an evil earthly life?

Unless you aren't in total control. But YHWH is supposed to be in total control of everything. So unless we allow that YHWH is helpless to avoid these things YHWH has no excuse for them.

Are you paying attention to the entire theology here?

Or are we supposed to be discussing some imaginary YHWH that you personally invented in your own mind?

If the latter is the case, then I'm sorry to say that I never heard of your YHWH.

[Zzyzx]

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Speaking as God again here: I must be getting old and tired, forgot a few things (don't pine for immortality, it sucks).

1) Stop all the worship garbage. I don't want it and you who pretend to know about me don't know Jack _______. You have no more clue than did the writers of your revered literature that purports to know me.

2) There is no afterlife so live your present life well.

3) I have adjusted your sex drive so you will stop spending your lives chasing each other for sex. Reproduce one-for-one and find something else to entertain yourselves

4) I have also boosted human intelligence and judgment several notches to encourage better decisions. See if you can improve your track record.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

YHWH appears to have done the best he could.

I picked that tiny bit from your post because to me it highlights exactly how pathetic is this God, Yahweh.
From elsewhere in your post, I don't think it is necessary to start from scratch creating a new universe to do something about the mess on this tiny, insignificant planet. Let's face it, God-magic is powerful stuff. If you can use it to make an entire fine-tuned universe, it should be a snap to patch up a planet that seems to have produced some faulty life forms.