Was Jesus crystal clear?

[marco]

Jesus played with figurative language: lambs, shepherds, goats and sheep, harvesting, missing money, silly virgins, ungrateful lepers and nice Samaritans. He never said direct things like:

"I'm not God, just a representative who has learned scripture."

"The holy Spirit I speak of is the personification of inspiration and moral support."

"It was wrongly reported that my Father asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. He would never ask such a wicked thing. Nor did he want infants slaughtered. "

"Heaven's not a physical place. You don't get there through ascensions."


Instead we are told his language can be understood only by those who have done a course in sheep talk. This to rational minds is nonsensical.

Why do you suppose Jesus spoke figuratively instead of being direct?
Can we regard his miracles as figurative too?

[Swami]

The reason why many skeptics don't believe in Jesus and don't understand his message is because they are unwilling to experience it.

Clearly experience isn't the magic solution your unsupported assertion claims it to be. If it were those who have experienced Jesus' message, which includes both skeptics and believers, would have a unified understanding of his message.

You'd be lucky to get only two contradictory opinions from two of these experiencers.


Tcg

If you are truly living out the message of Jesus, then where is your compassion? Trying to start quarrels is not compassion.

[Tcg]

The reason why many skeptics don't believe in Jesus and don't understand his message is because they are unwilling to experience it.

Clearly experience isn't the magic solution your unsupported assertion claims it to be. If it were those who have experienced Jesus' message, which includes both skeptics and believers, would have a unified understanding of his message.

You'd be lucky to get only two contradictory opinions from two of these experiencers.


Tcg

If you are truly living out the message of Jesus, then where is your compassion? Trying to start quarrels is not compassion.

I don't recall claiming to be "living out the message of Jesus." I do know for a fact that I am not trying to start a quarrel.

I have pointed out the weakness of your unsupported claim allowing you the opportunity to revise it appropriately. Accusing me falsely of an action I haven't taken may detract attention from the weakness of your argumentation, but it won't resolve the issues it contains.


Tcg

[marco]

Mohammed is sometimes referred to is the "seal of the prophets". The final prophet.

That seems rather unkind. Perhaps camel of the desert is better.

Why, if Jesus was so clear? Why, if Jesus was the "Son of God". Shouldn't Jesus be the end all, and be all, and not Paul?

Jesus is a man for the meek, Paul for proud palatial organisations. Jesus believed his ideas meant he was God's chosen messenger while Paul believed his Damascus adventure set him humbly above mere mortals, without being a deity himself. The area of Christ's clarity is in his refusal to say he wasn't God: that's clear enough.

[marco]

Possibly - and very, very simply - because …

The Jesus propaganda was political and NOT theological at all.

Gabriel at the "Annunciation" spoke of the "King of Israel".

The crowd at the donkey parade called for the "King of Israel".

It looks VERY clear to me that the new Marketing Guru put a theological spin on the failed political campaign.

Occam's Razor comes to mind here ….

The accusation that "all the Jews" brought down a curse on their own unborn children when they asked for Christ's execution is blatant propaganda, and has done untold hurt and harm.

Matthew 27:25 25 "All the people answered, "His blood is on us and on our children!"

I think the dreamer in the middle of it all was just a happy incidental whose good deeds and words were transformed later into miracles, and he himself was transformed into a deity, even though there was no room in heaven for two. Jesus is unfortunately the bits and pieces that people like the novelist Matthew cobbled together imaginatively. If there is lack of clarity perhaps the script writers are to blame.

[Elijah John]

Mohammed is sometimes referred to is the "seal of the prophets". The final prophet.

That seems rather unkind. Perhaps camel of the desert is better.

That's a good one.

Did I spell "seal" wrong? Or are you are you going on the supposition that I am making a pun.

[marco]

Mohammed is sometimes referred to is the "seal of the prophets". The final prophet.

That seems rather unkind. Perhaps camel of the desert is better.

That's a good one.

No I was being mischievous, EJ. I know he was the seal of the prophets, meaning he was God's final, exasperated attempt to make man see sense. I wonder why God favoured ambassadors from the Middle East.

Muhammad's clarity came through the sword while Christ's lack of it came from his figurative talk.

[Elijah John]

Muhammad's clarity came through the sword while Christ's lack of it came from his figurative talk.

I agree with the second part of your statement here. Christ's ambiguity came not only from his figurative talk, but from the fact that he never explicitly stated that "I am God".
Willingly and unwillingly, he left that for others.

Mohammed's clarity came from the Qur'an. Which states with crystal clarity that Allah alone is God, and Issa (Jesus) is "only" a prophet. God has no offspring.

[William]

Muhammad's clarity came through the sword while Christ's lack of it came from his figurative talk.

I agree with the second part of your statement here. Christ's ambiguity came not only from his figurative talk, but from the fact that he never explicitly stated that "I am God".
Willingly and unwillingly, he left that for others.

Mohammed's clarity came from the Qur'an. Which states with crystal clarity that Allah alone is God, and Issa (Jesus) is "only" a prophet. God has no offspring.

Jesus expected his followers to be able to work it out. The clarity came from within the individuals own critical thinking processes rather than relying upon being told and spoon-fed by whatever political or religious skulduggery one got such sustenance from.

[marco]

Muhammad's clarity came through the sword while Christ's lack of it came from his figurative talk.

I agree with the second part of your statement here. Christ's ambiguity came not only from his figurative talk, but from the fact that he never explicitly stated that "I am God".
Willingly and unwillingly, he left that for others.

Mohammed's clarity came from the Qur'an. Which states with crystal clarity that Allah alone is God, and Issa (Jesus) is "only" a prophet. God has no offspring.

I am talking about clarity beyond his statement about his divinity. As for the Koran, it would not have happened had Muhammad not first been an excellent trader and leader of warriors. He could explain the gold he got was from God, and who would argue? The book he produced would likewise be from God, and nobody argued. God works in mysterious ways, even in Arabic.

[marco]

Jesus expected his followers to be able to work it out. The clarity came from within the individuals own critical thinking processes rather than relying upon being told and spoon-fed by whatever political or religious skulduggery one got such sustenance from.

The flaw in this is that believers should then be noted for the acuity of their intellectual processes while those unfortunates who reject the message, not understanding it, should be close to intellectual lifelessness. It hasn't been my experience.

We debate Christ's alleged statements because they are ambiguous. People choose a meaning appropriate to the Christian brand name, or to their own lack of belief. I don't see rocket science being involved.