Did God really shout to his son?

[marco]

Matthew tells us:

" And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.�


Billions of babies get baptized but the Voice doesn't express delight. I've checked to see if this Voice was heard by any Roman writer of the time but apparently it was a local phenomenon for Christ's pointless ceremony. Sadly nothing concrete was dropped from what is called heaven but I suppose that could have ended in tragedy, for it's one thing for a pigeon to descend on the jubilant Jesus, quite another for a ton of gold to hit him. So all we have is the testimony of unstable Matthew to let us know about this fantastic piece of history.


Can we take the tale as a symbolic tribute to Christ, rather than fact?
Does the Bible lose credibility through Matthew's indulgence in such stories?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 69 by marco]

Where does the scripture say a captive slave can be abused? Or condone violence against girls?







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[Zzyzx]

.

Where does the scripture say a captive slave can be abused? Or condone violence against girls?

Perhaps we should start a class for Non-Christians to teach Christians about their Bible rather than doing so piecemeal in threads.

Exodus 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

[JehovahsWitness]

Exodus 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

This looks like the legal response (punishment) if a law is broken, my question is where is abuse and violence commanded (mandated) ordered, or condone (approved)? Outlining the limits of the law doesnt amount to approval.

Where does the scripture say a captive slave can be abused? Or condone violence against girls?

JW

[marco]

Where does the scripture say a captive slave can be abused? Or condone violence against girls?

Is this a serious question, given that the Bible is a handbook of violence? I understand that the JW position for a woman who has been raped is that she should scream or do everything she can to resist, else she is partly responsible for the act. But perhaps this is not the JW position: you may know.

Anyway here are some acts of kindness from the "holy" book:

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and destroy utterly all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass

Deuteronomy 22:23-29 23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."


Exodus 22:16-17 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride price for virgins."


(Marrying the girl who was raped makes the violence ok! Note that the rape is not condemned but violence to the wife of another man is; naturally there's no excuse given for the raped woman. )

[JehovahsWitness]

Is this a serious question...?

Yes it's a serious question, do you feel inclined to provide a seroius answer? I didn't ask for you to list {quote} "acts of kindness from the "holy" book" I asked ...

Where does the scripture say a captive slave can be abused? Or condone violence against girls?

JW

[Mithrae]

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."

Exodus 22:16-17 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride price for virgins."

(Marrying the girl who was raped makes the violence ok! Note that the rape is not condemned but violence to the wife of another man is; naturally there's no excuse given for the raped woman. )

A fine of 50 shekels of silver (~$20,000) for "violating" her and also - at her father's discretion - being required to marry and provide for her as long as he lived doesn't sound like it's okay to me. Perhaps it would have been better to kill the rapist?

[marco]

Is this a serious question...?

Yes it's a serious question, do you feel inclined to provide a seroius answer? I didn't ask for you to list {quote} "acts of kindness from the "holy" book" I asked ...

Where does the scripture say a captive slave can be abused? Or condone violence against girls?

Some would say the Bible promotes violence - end of story, rather than selectively going for girls. What I quoted would usually be evidence enough but if one attributes some element of blame to the victim of rape I fear nothing, however horrendously violent from the Bible, will suffice.

From your previous answers in support of what I would call biblical violence (Abraham and Isaac, for example) I am not getting a very favourable opinion of Jehovah's Witnesses, assuming you are offering their interpretations each time.

[JehovahsWitness]

Is this a serious question...?

Yes it's a serious question, do you feel inclined to provide a seroius answer? I didn't ask for you to list {quote} "acts of kindness from the "holy" book" I asked ...

Where does the scripture say a captive slave can be abused? Or condone violence against girls?

Some would say the Bible promotes violence.

Well if I ever come across someone that actually says that on this forum I'll surely considering addressing that point. In the meantime, do you feel like answering the question I asked you?





JW

[marco]

A fine of 50 shekels of silver (~$20,000) for "violating" her and also - at her father's discretion - being required to marry and provide for her as long as he lived doesn't sound like it's okay to me. Perhaps it would have been better to kill the rapist?

Yes I suppose compared to the limited duration of the girl's ordeal the man has suffered a great deal. Perhaps having to marry the girl is worse than the monetary fine.

The point I was making is that there seems to be a difference if one rapes a betrothed woman. If she's just a wandering virgin who is raped then a fine is sufficient. Note it is her father who decides if the girl marries her rapist. There is little consideration for the lady; in fact if she was incapable of being heard, she might even die. Did Jesus say: Blessed are the virgins in heaven, for they shall not be raped?

[marco]

In the meantime, do you feel like answering the question I asked you?

Ah, I see we are knee deep in semantics, the best way to avoid biblical unpleasantness.
When it is said:

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and destroy utterly all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass

this is technically not abusing babies taken prisoner, just slaughtering them. It's maybe extending things a bit but I think it qualifies as violence. Don't you? I can't think the recipients would have considered it anything else. But I must remember that in Biblical fields words miraculously change their meaning: Abraham wasn't told to murder his son, but to sacrifice him. Why bother to excuse the inexcusable? - the time was thousands of years ago, the people involved were savages and they have nothing to offer us.

Now we must get back quickly to God shouting at his son, else he might go home.