Why do you care if people believe your god tales?

[Zzyzx]

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Why do you care if people believe your god tales?

From a current thread:

Holding a negative view of atheists seems to be a requirement to bolster up some theologies. Holding a realistic view would cause to many cherished doctrines to crash to the ground.

"It is all a big conspiracy. The five percent (5%) who are Atheists are ganged up against we seventy percent (70%) who are Christians -- and they have a bunch of smart people and scientists on their side."

Of course, the spread of non-belief threatens the livelihood and status of preachers. But, why does it seem to so upset everyday believers? Does disbelief of others affect their own beliefs?

[Divine Insight]

Was the question why does [God] care? No. The question was "Why do you care". It doesn't make sense because you're looking for an answer to a question that was not asked. If you'd like to know how much God cares there is a Biblical answer for that, it was not however asked in the OP.

If you actually understood my reply you would know why what you just said here is totally irrelevant.

If you believe that God cares about people, then why would you feel that its important for you to do anything at all toward the salvation of anyone else?

The only possible answer to that question is that you don't trust God to care about these other people himself.

That's the only possible answer. There is no other reason why you should worry about people who might ultimately be condemned by God.

Also, because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for another. Some people like knowing others care about them. If you're not like that, cool.

If I didn't care about other people that would NOT be cool. That was an extremely hateful insinuation you have just thrown at me. You are insinuating that I don't care about other people, which had never been implied anywhere.

Also, this isn't about what "works" for you and doesn't "work" for me. This is about pure logical reasoning.

If you believe in a loving trustworthy God, then you should have absolutely no concern whatsoever that this God would condemn anyone who doesn't deserve to be condemned. And he most certainly wouldn't need your help in deciding who those people should be, or not be.

In fact, if you were able to play any role at all in the saving of another human soul, then you would necessarily be responsible for having saved a soul who God would have otherwise damned.

It simply doesn't work.

In fact the real irony here is that while I don't even believe in the existence of a God, I at least grant that if a God actually does exist I could trust God to do the right thing.

Ironically, while you claim to be a believer, you apparently don't trust God to do the right thing at all without you taking an active role in deciding who will and won't be saved or damned.

This isn't about me at all. I could have never been born and your argument would still be absurd and illogical.

And for you to even insinuate that I don't care about people is a very hateful thing for you to have done.

That doesn't serve to support your position in any case.

You clearly don't even understand the problem with your position.

Your analogy of God being like mindless natural disasters should give you a heads-up why your argument doesn't even hold water.

[Divine Insight]

The Gospels even have Jesus telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words.

Where is that?

Why is it that Christians never know what's in the Bible?

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

[Zzyzx]

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Why is it that Christians never know what's in the Bible?

Perhaps it is best for Christianity that pew warmers NOT know what is in the Bible -- and that they just parrot the few 'good parts' that are repeated over and over.

During the heyday of Christianity Bibles were only available in Latin and were copied by hand (VERY expensive). Preachers told their sheep what the Bible said. Now that Bibles are cheap and readily available there is no excuse for Bible Believers to be ignorant of its contents.

Yet, in these debates it is not uncommon for Non-Christians to tell Christians where to find things in their own Bible.

[2timothy316]

Was the question why does [God] care? No. The question was "Why do you care". It doesn't make sense because you're looking for an answer to a question that was not asked. If you'd like to know how much God cares there is a Biblical answer for that, it was not however asked in the OP.

If you actually understood my reply you would know why what you just said here is totally irrelevant.

If you actually read the theme of the thread you'd know why what you say is totally irrelevant. The question of the thread was "Why do you care if people believe your god tales?" I answered. That is it. You're clearly not happy with my answer, but why you're not is not up for debate. You're not debating the topic just rambling.

[Mithrae]

The Gospels even have Jesus telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words.

Where is that?

Why is it that Christians never know what's in the Bible?

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

It doesn't seem particularly impressive to quote a single verse as a proof text, out of a passage which clearly says exactly the opposite of what you are trying to prove, and then rudely claim that it is others who are ignorant of its contents.

• John 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.â€�

Fortunately there will always be others who can be relied upon to act as a backup squad to such mediocre 'debate' tactics, rather than asking for any kind of evidence or checking the facts for themselves.

[Divine Insight]

If you actually read the theme of the thread you'd know why what you say is totally irrelevant. The question of the thread was "Why do you care if people believe your god tales?" I answered. That is it. You're clearly not happy with my answer, but why you're not is not up for debate. You're not debating the topic just rambling.

But your answer gave an analogy of God being no better than mindless natural disasters.

In short, the reason you give for caring that people believe in your God is because you are convinced that your God is as ruthless and as untrustworthy as a mindless natural disaster.

That's the problem that you don't seem to understand.

If you actually trust your God to do what's right then why should you care who does or does not believe in your God?

The only reason you would need to care is if you don't trust your God to do what's right without your intervention, or help.

But that doesn't fly either.

Because even if you could have an influence on the eternal fate of anyone's soul, that could only mean that your God would have condemned the person had you not intervened or helped the person believe in your God.

How can you not see the problem with this?

As I say, ironically, even as an ex-Christian I still have more faith in an imaginary benevolent God that you do as a believer. I at least trust that if a benevolent righteous God exists he'll do what's right without my help or intervention.

If you think that you need to intervene or help in the saving of souls, then you can't have much trust in your God.

Moreover, even if you could have an effect on someone's eternal fate (one way or the other), that could only mean that no one can trust this God to do what's right.

Realizing the absurdity of evangelism is a good place to start to realize the fallacy of Christian evangelism.

If you managed to do anything at all that resulted in a human soul being saved who might have otherwise been damned. That could only mean that your God is damning people all the time who could have been saved.

What sense does that make?

The theology is clearly absurd. There can be no doubt about it.

The only reason you could care whether someone believes in your God is because you have been convinced that your God will damn them if they don't believe.

So to even worry about who God might damn, is to exhibit total and complete lack of trust in your God.

And besides, if God chooses to damn anyone, that's on his hands. Not on yours.

Evangelism is just another part of Christianity that proves it's necessarily a false religion. If there was an actual God behind it you would know that there is nothing you could possibly do to influence the eternal fate of any other human, one way or the other.

If your actions saved someone, then you just saved a person who God would have naturally condemned if left to his own choices.

Similar, if your actions end up getting someone condemned, then you have change what God would have otherwise done for that person.

As a believer in a God who judges others, you should do your very best to make sure you don't even come close to affecting the choices God might make. One way or the other.

But currently you're stuck with the analogy you gave.

According to you, your God is no different from a mindless natural disaster.

That was YOUR analogy.

[Divine Insight]

The Gospels even have Jesus telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words.

Where is that?

Why is it that Christians never know what's in the Bible?

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

It doesn't seem particularly impressive to quote a single verse as a proof text, out of a passage which clearly says exactly the opposite of what you are trying to prove, and then rudely claim that it is others who are ignorant of its contents.

• John 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.â€�

Fortunately there will always be others who can be relied upon to act as a backup squad to such mediocre 'debate' tactics, rather than asking for any kind of evidence or checking the facts for themselves.

Thank you for coming back with the absolute STANDARD attempt at an apology for this.

Do you really think I didn't read the rest of the text?

And besides, what exactly do you think the rest of the text even means?

It means that you don't need to believe in Jesus. Nor do you need to believe in his words. It means that in the last days you will be judged based on what he had said, NOT on whether or not you believe in him or in his words.

So when you throw John 12:48 back in my face, that's actually quite hilarious.

It doesn't change the truth of what was said in John 12:47.

And only those people who feel that they are in complete opposition to Jesus would need to worry about John 12:48.

What you seem to have totally missed is that I am already in 100% compliance with John 12:48. So there's nothing for me to worry about even if the words of Jesus were indeed true.

I still wouldn't need to believe in Jesus in his words.

Apparently you aren't paying attention either.

Moreover Jesus even tells us precisely what we need to do to obtain eternal life.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

I'm already in complete harmony with the preaching of Jesus.

Luke 6:37 is Jesus telling me that I will not be condemned. He's also telling me that I will not be judged. And he's also telling me that even if I have committed any sins, I will be forgiven, because I meet the qualifications that he spoke in Luke 6:37.


The only people who need to worry are people who don't qualify for Luke 6:37.

Believing in Jesus and believing in his words won't do you any good at all if you aren't in harmony with the words he spoke.

I was in harmony with the teachings of Jesus before I ever read the New Testament.

Christians seem to be convinced that they are all in opposition to Jesus. And that's not surprising actually since most Christians know that Mahatma Gandhi is indeed right. Most Christians are hypocrites. They preach fire and brimstone and damnation while totally ignoring what Jesus actually taught.

In fact, most Christians are most likely terrified of John 12:48 because they know that if they were to be judged on their actual actions they would indeed be condemned.

Only those of us who are in harmony with the things that Jesus actually taught realize that John 12:48 is nothing to worry about.

By the way, I KNEW that some one was going to toss John 12:48 back at me.

That's ridiculous. What exactly do you think that John 12:48 proves?

It only further proves my point. Jesus tells us not to worry because even if we don't believe in him, or in his words, we'll still be judged base on who we truly are.

So it's still true that in John 12:47 Jesus is indeed telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words. All that is important is who we truly are.

Period.

And in Luke 6:37 he even clarifies who you need to be if you want to avoid damnation.

If you qualify for Luke 6:37 you cannot be condemned lest Jesus becomes a liar.

And if you (generic you) don't qualify for Luke 6:37, then you've earned your own damnation. But supposedly if you get down on your hands and knees sobbing for forgiveness Jesus might be inclined to forgive anyway, even though you haven't earned it on your own character.

In Luke 6:37 he's simply assuring those of us who do qualify that we won't be condemned.

It's truly ironic that Christians fear Jesus more than anyone.

[Mithrae]

The Gospels even have Jesus telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words.

Where is that?

Why is it that Christians never know what's in the Bible?

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

It doesn't seem particularly impressive to quote a single verse as a proof text, out of a passage which clearly says exactly the opposite of what you are trying to prove, and then rudely claim that it is others who are ignorant of its contents.

• John 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.â€�

Fortunately there will always be others who can be relied upon to act as a backup squad to such mediocre 'debate' tactics, rather than asking for any kind of evidence or checking the facts for themselves.

Thank you for coming back with the absolute STANDARD attempt at an apology for this.

Do you really think I didn't read the rest of the text?

Do you really think that JW and other Christians haven't read it? Your interpretation of that passage is extremely dubious. Likewise with your equally selective use of a verse from Luke 6, a chapter which includes such choice phrases as "But woe to you who are rich... Woe to you who are well fed now... Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you," or "Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back" and ends with

• Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.â€�

I'm sure you will find a third verse to snip out of context as a proof text for your claim that "Jesus told us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words" - and odds are your third attempt will likewise say exactly the opposite in its immediate context too.

The fact that Christians themselves (like the rest of us) rarely obey Jesus' words despite calling him 'Lord, Lord' doesn't change the fact that your original claim was and is flat out wrong, and the cherry-picking and rudeness in response to JW's query only took it further downhill.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 28 by Mithrae]

Why Christians insist on making a hateful monster out of Jesus I'll never know.

You are free to support that mindset if you like. But what's the point? Why demand that Jesus hates everyone and that no one is worthy of anything?

Christianity is the most disgusting religion in the world precisely because of this.

The text is clear. No need to interpret anything. Jesus said that he will not judge those who don't believe in him or his words. What part of that do you not understand?

Also, if you are so certain that you are not in harmony with the words of Jesus, then please explain why that is. Why are you so against what Jesus taught?

And if you're not against it. then why would you fear John 12:48?

I'll be more than happy to be judged on my own character.

I'll especially be thrilled if the words attributed to Jesus in Luke 6:37 are true.

If the words attributed to Jesus in Luke 6:37 are true, then my eternal life in paradise is guaranteed by my own character.

The only way it could be false is if Jesus like, and we can't have that.

Why are Christian so down on themselves? Why are they so anxious to make Jesus into a horrible monster?

And if you don't qualify for Luke 6:37 why not?

And if you do, then you won't be condemned, right?

The only way you could be condemned is for Jesus to be a liar.

And we have have Jesus going around telling lies.

I totally agree with Mahatma Gandhi. Christians are so unlike their Christ. And apparently they can't even seem to be happy until they've made Jesus into a disgusting monster as well.

Just think about it. All Christians want to do is have God condemn everyone.

It's a religion that is obsessed with condemnation.

Where are their any Christians who actually view Jesus and God as being loving trustworthy deities? They seem to try to make that claim out of one side of their mouth, while demanding from the other side that Jesus and God are horrible unreasonable monsters.

I am so glad that I left this disgusting religion.

Why do you people hate God and Jesus so much? I'll never understand that.

Jesus was supposed to be all about love and forgiveness, not the condemnation of decent people.

By the way, why did you post the following?

"But woe to you who are rich..."

Why say this to me? I'm not rich. Far from it. I don't even qualify as "middle class". In fact, I actually qualify as "poverty stricken". Moreover, I don't care. I have never cared about money and that's part of the reason I don't have any.

Woe to you who are well fed now...

Why say this to me? I eat the cheapest food I can buy. I'm often living on canned tuna and oddles of noodles.

Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you

What sense does that even make? If someone speaks well of you that's a good thing, unless they are being sarcastic just to butter up to you.

"Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back"

Again, why are you posting these verses to me?

If anything, I've been accused many times over of letting other people take advantage of me. I even even offered to be laid off from a really good job one time so that another fellow who had less sonority and a new born baby could keep his job. How many Christians would do that?

Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Sounds like he's talking to his own followers there. Apparently, just like Mahatma Gandhi, Jesus recognized that those who claim to follow him don't do as he says either.

I have no clue why you are posting all these verse to me. They have nothing to do with me at all. And they certainly don't support your position.

I was right in my first post, and I'm still right. Jesus said that there's no need to believe in him or in his words. All that's important is that a person behaves in accordance with the decent principles he preached. And I certainly qualify for that. And in Luke 6:37 Jesus confirms this.

If what Jesus said in Luke 6:37 is true, then I can't be condemned lest Jesus would become a liar. And we can't have that.

[Mithrae]

• Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.â€�

I'm sure you will find a third verse to snip out of context as a proof text for your claim that "Jesus told us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words" - and odds are your third attempt will likewise say exactly the opposite in its immediate context too.

Apparently I was mistaken; only two sort-of proof texts Instead we all we get to see is an emotional rant against "this disgusting religion," a laughably inaccurate claim that I belong to it (perhaps I too am "disgusting" and inadvertently caused the confusion?) and a litany of righteous deeds and self-righteous condemnation of those nasty Christians.

None of which changes the obvious and unequivocal fact that Jesus did clearly and repeatedly say that it's important for his hearers to believe in him and his words... including in the very passages cherry-picked as proof texts to the contrary!