Why do you care if people believe your god tales?

[Zzyzx]

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Why do you care if people believe your god tales?

From a current thread:

Holding a negative view of atheists seems to be a requirement to bolster up some theologies. Holding a realistic view would cause to many cherished doctrines to crash to the ground.

"It is all a big conspiracy. The five percent (5%) who are Atheists are ganged up against we seventy percent (70%) who are Christians -- and they have a bunch of smart people and scientists on their side."

Of course, the spread of non-belief threatens the livelihood and status of preachers. But, why does it seem to so upset everyday believers? Does disbelief of others affect their own beliefs?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to Muffinmayne in post #88]

It is a pleasure to respond to your thoughtful posts. Keep up the good work.

There’s too much there for me to want to reply to lol

Don't feel bad if there is too much 'incoming'. It seems advisable to 'choose your battles wisely' and to focus on issues selectively. Of course, I do not follow that advice very well – except to limit almost all my debate to this, the C&A sub-forum.

I think apologist or people on both sides reveal how little they know about a religion. I can tell from the context in which a lot of scripture is used. It’s one thing to google a verse and post it, it’s another to understand it in it’s full context. On both sides I’ve seen people be wrong.

What makes you think you are right and others are wrong? It is just your opinion vs. theirs. Some here have declared that their opinion is superior because they have special knowledge given them by supernatural entities. They are not taken seriously – and are in violation of Forum Rules prohibiting any claims to have direct communication with gods or being appointed official representatives of gods.

Most beliefs, if not all beliefs come through “training” what kind of person just believes things just because? So I don’t see that as an issue. Religious “training” is perfectly normal.

Teaching can take many forms, including training that can mean anything from yoga to Marine Corps boot camp. The term 'indoctrination' is often used – defined as “the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.” The key word is 'uncritically.'

It seems as though many religions teach (indoctrinate) their members, particularly children, to believe what they are told 'on faith' and not question / doubt the doctrine and dogma. If the literature says that long-dead bodies come back to life, BELIEVE it.

I got in a lot of trouble in Catholic school seventy years ago for questioning tales about donkeys and snakes talking. Before long it was suggested that public school would be more appropriate. Was an attempt being made to indoctrinate me (accept uncritically)? I would say so. Was it successful? Nope, it failed miserably. Even as a youngster I couldn't imagine why adults told such tall tales as though they were true.

I haven’t seen anyone here flat out say people are malicious it’s just implied by the way they refer to certain things. It’s as though people talk to and about each others beliefs like they’re a joke.

As long as posts remain civil, challenging religious (or any other) claims and stories is fair game.

I would hope you wouldn’t buy a bag with bad apples.

Of course I would if there were usable apples and if the price was right.

I would also hope one doesn’t eat a bad apple and think all apples taste like that one, and that seems to be where people’s thinking leads them.

I do some volunteer work relating to supplying groceries to those in need. Tomorrow I will pick up a large load of produce and deliver it to the Ladies who sort it and distribute to people they know are in need of food.

If a bag or box of apples (or whatever) has a few bad ones, those are consigned to the compost pile and the useable ones are distributed. I do not hesitate to pick up one of the better rejects, cut out a bad spot, and enjoy. Doing so does not alter my impression of the fruit in general.

You met some overly zealous and extreme religious people? That sucks, it really does.

As a resident of the Bible Belt, encountering zealots is not unusual. Also, the Forum attracts fanatics from time to time (actually fairly often). They are tolerated provided they adhere to Forum Rules.

Does that mean all religious people or religions teach people to be like that? No, not at all.

Agree. A lot of religious people seem quite rational (aside from telling strange stories).

[brunumb]

If a bag or box of apples (or whatever) has a few bad ones, those are consigned to the compost pile and the useable ones are distributed. I do not hesitate to pick up one of the better rejects, cut out a bad spot, and enjoy. Doing so does not alter my impression of the fruit in general.

That was a particularly beautiful way of making your point and it really resonated with me.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #86]

My question would be, why as a seemingly rational and normal person let someone else away you and dictate how you spread your religion. How can you as a sane person have thought scaring people into doing anything was correct? Just because you have a belief system doesn’t mean you don’t get to think for yourself.

Zzyzx said it well in post #87: "I note that childhood religious training is how most people develop their religious beliefs – before judgment and discernment have developed."
I bolded the relevant part. Being set free from my beliefs was truly the hardest thing I have ever had to go through and it took years, but I was finally able to think for myself.

The fear of being a luke warm Christian spewed from the mouth of a god inhibits much thinking on your own. I wanted my mantion in heaven, not eternal damnation in a lake of fire. Therefore, when I started to question my beliefs, I blamed those thoughts on the devil like I was taught to do.

I’m a Christian and if anyone ever told me that I needed to go to a foreign country and scare anyone for any reason they would be met with a quick f off.

(This also addresses the OP) I did it to save souls (the missionary ministry and evangelizing). I was not scared into evangelizing or traveling to other countries. Many of the tools we used, especially on children included the scare tactic I mentioned that worked on me when I was a child.

Not every religious person goes through such a thing obviously. I not only did, but perpetuated it for many years and now worry that I may be the cause of many now struggling with an irrational fear of a hell that started when they were a child.

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #93]

No disrespect at all but if you don’t have judgment or discernment then it’s not really your faith and beliefs.

Seems to you let someone else dictate to you their beliefs and your were just led by the nose. It’s wasn’t what you believed or your faith you just latched on to theirs.

I’m sad to see that happened to you but you being led wrong didn’t say anything about Christianity, just says you’re gullible or were.

[Zzyzx]

No disrespect at all but if you don’t have judgment or discernment then it’s not really your faith and beliefs.

Judgment and discernment develop gradually over time via the maturation process. In the US people are considered to have sufficient judgment to drive an automobile at age 16; to vote or sign legal contracts at 18, to purchase alcohol 21.

By those ages, many or most people have been 'taught' religion for MANY years -- typically by 'authority figures'.

How effective would proselytization likely be if it was started at age 18 (with no prior indoctrination)? How successful would it likely be if those 18-year-olds had been taught critical / analytical thinking and decision-making?

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #93]

No disrespect at all but if you don’t have judgment or discernment then it’s not really your faith and beliefs.

None taken, you are demonstrably wrong anyway.
Feel free to argue that I didn't have judgment or discernment, I feel no need to rebut. However, the faith and the beliefs that I had were sincere and they were my own. Yes, I was indoctrinated and even threatened into having them, but that does not make the beliefs I had not beliefs I had.

Seems to you let someone else dictate to you their beliefs and your were just led by the nose.

That is how I initially got the beliefs, but from there they became my own that I embrased for almost 2 decades.

It’s wasn’t what you believed or your faith you just latched on to theirs.

Even though I was indoctrinated into latching on the beliefs my parents held, they became my own. Letting go of beliefs that my family held would not have been so hard. Letting go of these beliefs that I held, was one of the hardest things I have ever gone through.

I’m sad to see that happened to you but you being led wrong didn’t say anything about Christianity,

I'm sad to see that you don't seem to reconize the indoctrination and threats that take place in order for Christianity to survive and what impact that has on the children of this world.

just says you’re gullible or were.

I was, but not gullible enough to not question them once I matured. I fear for the more gullible as they may never escape.

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #96]

Well I’m not here to tell you what you think or thought, you can speak for yourself on those matters. All I’m saying is if you were scared into thinking a way, those beliefs aren’t your own. If someone had to threaten you, as you say, then those beliefs weren’t yours.

I don’t see Christianity having to indoctrinate and threaten people into believing to survive. I myself am proof of that. Never once had to be coerced in any way.

I think the worst part is being falling for fear tactics then falling for the idea that that’s what Christianity is. It’s like a double whammy.

[Zzyzx]

All I’m saying is if you were scared into thinking a way, those beliefs aren’t your own. If someone had to threaten you, as you say, then those beliefs weren’t yours.

Thus, if people have been told what to do or what to believe or how to worship OR face punishment (or 'hell') after they die – the beliefs they then accept are NOT their own. Right?

I don’t see Christianity having to indoctrinate and threaten people into believing to survive.

Do you really think that Christianity would not seriously decline if programs directed toward children were eliminated – children's' catechism, youth programs, summer church camps, church schools?

I myself am proof of that. Never once had to be coerced in any way.

Your experience reflects your personal characteristics – and cannot be regarded as representing Christians in general. Some people will conform when given a stern look.

I think the worst part is being falling for fear tactics then falling for the idea that that’s what Christianity is. It’s like a double whammy.

One of the few things my father said that I can agree with, “The church rules by fear and guilt”

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to Zzyzx in post #98]

I will say this, if your only experience is bring feared into believing something then the belief isn’t yours. You’re just scared of what it means to face the consequences you’ve been told about.

No I don’t think Christianity will somehow suffer if fear tactics aren’t used. The difference between you and me is you think it’s normal for a Christian to try to manipulate and scare people into believing. I don’t.

[Zzyzx]

I will say this, if your only experience is bring feared into believing something then the belief isn’t yours. You’re just scared of what it means to face the consequences you’ve been told about.

I agree – and suggest that Christendom remove all reference to punishment by 'God' in an 'afterlife'. Let people make a reasoned decision based on verifiable information about supernatural characters and events rather than being threatened with consequences (or promised rewards) 'after you die.'

Without threats and promises, what does Christianity actually have to offer? (I started a new thread on that topic. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37514)

No I don’t think Christianity will somehow suffer if fear tactics aren’t used. The difference between you and me is you think it’s normal for a Christian to try to manipulate and scare people into believing. I don’t.

I suggest putting that to a test for one generation – no children's activities / classes / camps.