Without Jesus, I'm Nothing

[SallyF]

Is this a reasonable Christian claim …?

[William]

Without theism I have friends and golden retrievers who can let me know they value me. My dog values me, so I should value myself, for there is a purpose to valuing oneself.

Yet non-theism offers me no value beyond what can be had from me on the planet in this one life, and what is it they offer which can be considered valuable?

They will not be my friend if I remain a Theist. How then should I think that their friendship is real and that their value of me is truth?

Indeed, can it not be argued that this type of valuation - modeled upon non-theism - is of no significant value and promotes the ideas of invisible entities as a means of filling up the space which is empty, giving depth to an otherwise shallow facade?

If a non theist could be my friend without the expectation that I denounce a theistic outlook, I would understand at least that there is sincerity in the offer.

So the non-theist sees me as "something" but what is that "something" that I should trust the value he sees in me will even be good for me?

One can also argue the same from the non-theist position against the theist, and find evidence of the same.

Perhaps non-theism arrived at my door too late, and offered me too little and gave me no hope that my life was more than a passing moment which would be snuffed in death. Those who believe such appear to take advantage of the moment and theism protects me from their hidden motivations as to why they want to be my friend. I am valued by such, as a means of enriching their own lifestyles, and the price they ask is that I slay all notions of The Creator and accept their value of me in return.

If in death I am no more, then nothing is lost by that. If in death, I am faced with the continuation of experience, I have gained the evidence that I was correct not to exchange theism for non-theism.

And perhaps my Labrador will be their faithfully waiting and also those who made it their 'fight the good fight' mission to have me slay god, will also be present...but far less happy to see me than my dog.

Without theism, yes - I am nothing in the eyes of non-theists for they themselves admit that the something I am is pretty much next to nothing. A passing thing which will end in nothing.

[Zzyzx]

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I'll try to simplify for those who have difficulty: I do not regard imaginary / fantasy characters as 'evil' or 'good', though they may be depicted as such in tales, folklore, fiction, and religious stories.

So what? Why regard them at all?

The subject was raised about one of the 'gods' being evil. Presumably if one answers the OP with the understanding that the 'god' is evil, that answer would be different than if the 'god' is not evil.

Did the thread subject ask you to regard them as real or imaginary? No it did not. How you regard characters in stories is not the question being asked. How difficult is that to understand?

My answer to the OP question is not the same if applied to a fictional character vs. a real character.

Without theism I have friends and golden retrievers who can let me know they value me. My dog values me, so I should value myself, for there is a purpose to valuing oneself.

It is fortunate that you have dogs

Yet non-theism offers me no value beyond what can be had from me on the planet in this one life, and what is it they offer which can be considered valuable?

Life on Earth does not 'offer value' – with or without theism. Life is what we make of it – no gods required, no worship, no rituals

They will not be my friend if I remain a Theist. How then should I think that their friendship is real and that their value of me is truth?

Your 'friends' offer friendship only if you renounce theism?

Perhaps it would be prudent to choose friends more wisely.

[Diogenes]

This appears to be an argument using cost/benefit analysis.
It is not an appeal to truth.

[Icey]

Is this a reasonable Christian claim …?

I think that's a sad and sick POV for one to have. Such loathing. Such sadness. Such emptiness. But those things are what feed cults/religions/intangible organizations. Humanity feeds on these organizations.

[Zzyzx]

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I think that's a sad and sick POV for one to have. Such loathing. Such sadness. Such emptiness. But those things are what feed cults/religions/intangible organizations. Humanity feeds on these organizations.

It is indeed sick and sad that children are imbued with such notions and often carry the feeling of personal worthlessness through life.

The effect of destroying self-confidence is coercing dependency on religion / organized religion / clergy to provide 'value' in life (for a price). If people realized they were not dependent on religion or Jesus, where would the money come from to build and maintain palaces of worship and pay preacher salaries?

[Diogenes]

What is the Biblical support, if any, for this self abnegation?

[William]

What is the Biblical support, if any, for this self abnegation?

There is plenty of biblical support - but in that I think I see reason - ideally it is about rejecting the personality one was made into through initial Human experience and adopting a new personality which transcends any type of abnegation - subjective or objective. Deny ones initial sense of self-identity, whilst embracing another.

We come from the direction of the wilds...we strive to be more than just whatever we were made to be by others enforcing their stuff into us.

Not sure if the biblical ho-hah about that process, is legitimate in allowing the genuine to break through from the mundane/ordinary since there is plenty of evidence to support that the bible has been used by religion to shape folk into the kind of personalities it can easiest deal with...

[Diogenes]

What is the Biblical support, if any, for this self abnegation?

There is plenty of biblical support....

Perhaps you could [ahem] "support" your claim by sharing just one of the passages that supports the assertion that we are "nothing without Jesus."

If we are "nothing" without Jesus, what were we before his birth? Supposing he has "always been" as the Gospel of John asserts, why would God care about "nothings?"
Why would God love us if we are "nothing" without Him?

[William]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #18]

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

Are you referring to self abnegation in the same way you are referring to the idea of being "nothing without Jesus."?

I think the phrase has no merit in relation to Mathew 16-24 but does have a lot to do with what I wrote in my post...

The God of the OT also commands those who follow him, to regard their own lives as less important than what he commands. But is that self abnegation or something different? You have not shown that to being the case, if that is what you are meaning.

[William]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #18]

If we are "nothing" without Jesus, what were we before his birth? Supposing he has "always been" as the Gospel of John asserts, why would God care about "nothings?"
Why would God love us if we are "nothing" without Him?

According to atheism, we are 'nothing' in the same way as how I think this expression is being used.
Nothing important. Nothing to get excited about. Just brains doing their thing and then death. Alongside of that theme. The God is saying that without a relationship with him, ones life is as 'nothing' in particular, in much the same way as atheists are sometimes seen to argue about the Human experience.

Is there validity in either position of expression?

It may be that those who wrote such, were saying something along the lines that in connecting with the Mind behind Creation, their previous experience of being Human, was shown to be 'nothing' in comparison to how they then proceeded with their experience of being Human.