Without Jesus, I'm Nothing

[SallyF]

Is this a reasonable Christian claim …?

[Clownboat]

If one is convinced it is reasonable for one to seek the assistence one thinks one requires, what is that to another?

That would obviously depend. If I was convinced/tricked that I needed one of your eyes to make a concoction in order to improve my own eyesite. You may have a feeling on the matter.
On the other hand... If I have been convinced/tricked that I can pray to have my food magically multiplied, that wouldn't affect you, and thus you likely wouldn't care.

That another's opinion is that fraudulence is happening, and thus the choices are unreasonable, can one show others why one has every reason to claim the idea is unreasonable?

Which idea that is unreasonable are you talking about?

[Clownboat]

Humans are apparently not naturally inclined to kindness. Those who want to be kind and turn to Jesus [and all the variants that this implies] may see it as taking advantage of what is on offer, and atheism is not about being kind, so finding help from atheists re that, would be an unreasonable expectation.

Now you are just being silly it seems.
Atheism is not about being kind, that much is true. Arriving at, 'an atheist not being able to help someone be kind' does not follow and is an illogical conclusion.

Being Dr. has nothing to do with kindness either. To claim that a Dr. therefore cannot be kind or help someone else be kind is just silly.

Sure, charging greatly inflated prices for medicine, is not kind either. It is unreasonable to expect atheism to be a platform for protest, against such unkind practice.

Now you got it!
However, a person, that just might be an atheist may protest against such an unkind practice. You seeing where you errored above yet?

So where do individuals who find no remedy for their natural unkindness turn to for - if nothing else - at least a semblance of kindness, if atheism can't help them?

Lead by example. Be kind and be an example.
Religion or lack there of need not enter the equation.

And what business is it of atheism, if folk turn to Jesus?

You'll need to define atheism and how you are using it here, as how it sits now, your statement doesn't make much sense to me.
How about this for an answer? As much business as it would be to a veterinarian.

And what is unkind/unreasonable about the notion that a declaration is heard from some Christians, that they ONCE thought of themselves as "nothing" and it was this discovery of something [in their case - "Jesus"] which lifted them from those doldrums?

When put that way, it seems much more kind.
I'm talking specifically about trying to convince humans that they are nothing...

Why - if atheism has no vested interest in the phrase - do atheists make it their personal business to say such is "unreasonable"? How is that reasonable?

If you ever try to convince one of my daughters that they are nothing, you'll know real quick that I have a vested interests. Trying being kind to them instead, it's not that hard.

If lack of belief in gods prompts from ya'll - kindness

First show this to be the case. Then maybe it will be worth discussing.

But if it works for you, why belittle other ways in which it works for other folk?

I belittle the idea of trying to convince people that they are nothing. To inform a child for example that they are nothing is something I find unkind. Why do you find it kind to trick children into believing they are nothing? Where would the kindness be in that.

How is that reasonable?

I find it reasonable to belittle unkindness. And I would belittle you (outside of this forum) if I witnessed you being unkind to a child about their worth for example. Even if you are being unkind because of a god concept.

[William]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #41]

That another's opinion is that fraudulence is happening, and thus the choices are unreasonable, can one show others why one has every reason to claim the idea is unreasonable?

Which idea that is unreasonable are you talking about?

The idea that some Christians have that "Without Jesus, they are Nothing"
Can one show others why one has every reason to claim the idea is unreasonable?

[William]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #42]

Humans are apparently not naturally inclined to kindness. Those who want to be kind and turn to Jesus [and all the variants that this implies] may see it as taking advantage of what is on offer, and atheism is not about being kind, so finding help from atheists re that, would be an unreasonable expectation.

Now you are just being silly it seems.
Atheism is not about being kind, that much is true. Arriving at, 'an atheist not being able to help someone be kind' does not follow and is an illogical conclusion.

Being Dr. has nothing to do with kindness either. To claim that a Dr. therefore cannot be kind or help someone else be kind is just silly.

It may be that I am just being silly, but I am somewhat forced to be so on account that atheists tell me that atheism teaches nothing and is simply a position which describes 'lacking belief is gods".

As such, lacking belief in gods has nothing to teach us about kindness, therefore those who practice kindness, do so for other reasons. Not because they lack belief in gods.

So it is silly for an atheist to argue that the belief some theist's have re OPSubject, is 'unreasonable' and it is silly to argue that atheists are kind because they lack belief in gods.

Sure, charging greatly inflated prices for medicine, is not kind either. It is unreasonable to expect atheism to be a platform for protest, against such unkind practice.

Now you got it!
However, a person, that just might be an atheist may protest against such an unkind practice. You seeing where you errored above yet?

I am starting to think that being an atheist is simply sharing the position of atheism. In that, it is not ones lack of belief in gods which gives reason for an atheist to protest against an unkind practice. It is obvious that something else besides that, motivates them in that way.

In that, there appears to be no rational reason as to why someone would claim that they protest against unkindness BECAUSE they lack belief in gods [are atheists].

Adjusting that to focus on the Thread OP Subject and subsequent posts, we can verify that all those who say it is unreasonable for Christians to claim that without Jesus they are nothing, are NOT saying so because they are atheists, but because they are whatever else it is that would motivate them to say so.

So where do individuals who find no remedy for their natural unkindness turn to for - if nothing else - at least a semblance of kindness, if atheism can't help them?

Lead by example. Be kind and be an example.
Religion or lack there of need not enter the equation.

What example? What do you mean by 'be kind'? Is the OP kind? Is the author of the OP an accurate example of what 'being kind' is about? Can we examine the wake of her thread topics and in that, find a truthful answer to that question?
What reason have you provided which supports the claim that religion need not enter the equation?

And what business is it of atheism, if folk turn to Jesus?

You'll need to define atheism and how you are using it here, as how it sits now, your statement doesn't make much sense to me.

I leave it to atheists to define atheism. I have given those examples. Atheism has nothing to teach and atheism is the lack of belief in god/gods.

How about this for an answer? As much business as it would be to a veterinarian.

Atheism isn't "it is unreasonable if folk turn to Jesus" in the same way that your veterinarian wouldn't claim that being a vet compels the vet to think "it is unreasonable if folk turn to Jesus". Something other than being a vet is doing the compelling and it would be silly for the vet to claim otherwise.

And what is unkind/unreasonable about the notion that a declaration is heard from some Christians, that they ONCE thought of themselves as "nothing" and it was this discovery of something [in their case - "Jesus"] which lifted them from those doldrums?

When put that way, it seems much more kind.
I'm talking specifically about trying to convince humans that they are nothing...

Some Humans require being taken down a peg or two as part of their growth and maturing process.
Others are already at rock bottom and so tend to think of themselves in that manner anyway.
The underlying hope of millions of theists cannot be underestimated or hand waved away as an unnecessary extra. It is part of the equation and to understand it through the lens of unkindness is a type of self-delusion, as far as I can tell by the evidence.

Hope has a way of stabilizing potentially volatile reactions.

Why - if atheism has no vested interest in the phrase - do atheists make it their personal business to say such is "unreasonable"? How is that reasonable?

If you ever try to convince one of my daughters that they are nothing, you'll know real quick that I have a vested interests. Trying being kind to them instead, it's not that hard.

Yes - of course. I wonder how you could possibly imagine that I would be unkind to your daughters.
That aside, it is clearly NOT because you lack belief in gods, that you feel this necessity to protect your offspring from possible 'threats' and I would hope that you do not teach them that you are this way inclined because you are an atheist. Furthermore, I would hope that you wouldn't hesitate to bring them down a peg or two if you observed they were being unkind to others.

I belittle the idea of trying to convince people that they are nothing. To inform a child for example that they are nothing is something I find unkind. Why do you find it kind to trick children into believing they are nothing? Where would the kindness be in that.

Why would I trick myself into thinking that the expression "Without Jesus, I am Nothing" has to do with practicing unkindness?
Why should I believe the expression isn't based in the kinder understanding I mentioned - in that "what is unkind/unreasonable about the notion that a declaration is heard from some Christians, that they ONCE thought of themselves as "nothing" and it was this discovery of something [in their case - "Jesus"] which lifted them from those doldrums?"

I find it reasonable to belittle unkindness. And I would belittle you (outside of this forum) if I witnessed you being unkind to a child about their worth for example. Even if you are being unkind because of a god concept.

If my actions as a child are unkind, then I am showing how much of a "nothing" I am - when compared to the potential "something" I could become. I might never exit that cycle without someone else attempting to give me a heads-up on the matter.
I think that it the underlying accompanying condition of the expression, and it is sometimes twisted by both those who believe in gods and those who do not.

You have shown me no reason as to why I should think that the expression means those who use it, do so in order to be unkind to children.

[Eloi]

There is an intrinsic connection between knowing that God exists and has the right to tell us how to act (especially if he is a God who loves everything that is right and beneficial) ... and wanting to do what everyone sees fit. When humans invent systems of justice, they are only trying to substitute for God ...

[William]

There is an intrinsic connection between knowing that God exists and has the right to tell us how to act (especially if he is a God who loves everything that is right and beneficial) ... and wanting to do what everyone sees fit. When humans invent systems of justice, they are only trying to substitute for God ...

Can you tie this into the thread subject?

[William]

Is this a reasonable Christian claim …?

[JoeyKnothead]

"Without Jesus, I'm nothing".

I don't much fret when the Christian says or thinks that, for themselves.

What frets me is when they set to thinking it about others.

This atheist is well aware of the stigma and descrimination some Christians are happy to put upon anyone who's "without Jesus". From beating the Hell out of em, to noosing em, to just the seeking to restrict their roles in society or government.

Now, with so many in what I'll call the "I'm without Jesus, and about me fed up with all this descrimination and Christian self dealing" bunch having become more vocal and pushbacky here in the US, the Christian can't understand the "war on Christmas", or, "the war on Christians", or "the war on God". It's especially galling when they use such terms when folks say "Happy Holidays", or ask the Christian to not perform their religious rituals under the guise of government. Or make folks beg a god they don't believe in, in some misguided "pledge" of allegiance to a nation that declares freedom of religion an important bit of the national identity, and how goofy is that.

When ya wage war, literal or metaphorical, on anyone who ain't you, for some hundreds if not thousands of years, is it really shocking folks'd finally get fed up enough to go to war back?


"Without Jesus, I'm nothing" ain't it the problem here. It's the thinking others're "nothing" cause they don't bite into that big pie in the sky from which it is, you sup.

[William]

"Without Jesus, I'm nothing".

I don't much fret when the Christian says or thinks that, for themselves.

What frets me is when they set to thinking it about others.

This atheist is well aware of the stigma and descrimination some Christians are happy to put upon anyone who's "without Jesus". From beating the Hell out of em, to noosing em, to just the seeking to restrict their roles in society or government.

Now, with so many in what I'll call the "I'm without Jesus, and about me fed up with all this descrimination and Christian self dealing" bunch having become more vocal and pushbacky here in the US, the Christian can't understand the "war on Christmas", or, "the war on Christians", or "the war on God". It's especially galling when they use such terms when folks say "Happy Holidays", or ask the Christian to not perform their religious rituals under the guise of government. Or make folks beg a god they don't believe in, in some misguided "pledge" of allegiance to a nation that declares freedom of religion an important bit of the national identity, and how goofy is that.

When ya wage war, literal or metaphorical, on anyone who ain't you, for some hundreds if not thousands of years, is it really shocking folks'd finally get fed up enough to go to war back?


"Without Jesus, I'm nothing" ain't it the problem here. It's the thinking others're "nothing" cause they don't bite into that big pie in the sky from which it is, you sup.

I ain't got me no wimun pretty thing what I knowed moans more n like anatheists rantin 'bout churched folk, I declare.

But what I knowed, sittin here-bouts surrounded by the fiendish foe...tis war through and through I tells ya.

This ear be a shush movie about anatheist family what got theirself churched. It snuff ta make me cry me baby eyes out

[JoeyKnothead]

I ain't got me no wimun pretty thing what I knowed moans more n like anatheists rantin 'bout churched folk, I declare.

I grew up in an area, and a time, where being a known atheist had me getting my fourth point of contact beat to Hell and back with a frequency I'd prefer to forget. To this day I struggle with severe anxiety in a crowd of just a few folks or more. Ya can't just simply forget the torment. It invades your thoughts, whether asleep or awake. I've lived what I speak.