What is the greater evil?

[Elijah John]

What is the greater evil, picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Or Stoning that person to death for doing so?

[Mithrae]

How would breaking a law like that destroy a whole nation? And just because he did, isn't concluding that "he doesn't care...as long as he can do whatever he wants" a bridge too far? Seems like some kind of non-sequitur or some other manner of fallacy.

The person showed he didn’t care about the law, and when people begin to do so, and ignore the law, the nation begins to erode and ceases to exist. One person itself is not the whole nation, but if one is allowed to do so, also others will follow, until the nation is destroyed.

That would be the case only if most people in the nation already "doesn't care...as long as he can do whatever he wants" and fear is the only thing keeping them in check.

It also begs the question of why gathering wood on the Sabbath warranted a cruel death, but many other infractions (eg. raping an unbetrothed virgin, beating a slave to within an inch of his life) received much lesser punishments - surely they should all be punished alike?

[William]

How would breaking a law like that destroy a whole nation? And just because he did, isn't concluding that "he doesn't care...as long as he can do whatever he wants" a bridge too far? Seems like some kind of non-sequitur or some other manner of fallacy.

The person showed he didn’t care about the law, and when people begin to do so, and ignore the law, the nation begins to erode and ceases to exist. One person itself is not the whole nation, but if one is allowed to do so, also others will follow, until the nation is destroyed.

That would be the case only if most people in the nation already "doesn't care...as long as he can do whatever he wants" and fear is the only thing keeping them in check.

It also begs the question of why gathering wood on the Sabbath warranted a cruel death, but many other infractions (eg. raping an unbetrothed virgin, beating a slave to within an inch of his life) received much lesser punishments - surely they should all be punished alike?

This is because the crime wasn't against one's neighbor so much as it was against the God-idea, which - of course - could have a negative indirect impact on the tribe.

Taken in bytes the story has its ugly skid-marks. Take as a whole, it moves us from the one state to a better one...where rape is frowned upon and anything God is supposed to have said, need be questioned.

Where it gets tricky is along the lines of those who have great difficulty in accepting one form of rape, and relishing in the knowledge that culprit being caught and imprisoned is now going to get raped by the inmates.

This could equally explain why some folk have a soft spot for the idea of hell and damnation.

What is wrong with the picture? We cannot successfully have disdain for the abhorrent whilst at the same time celebrate it.

I ask myself "Is this what YHWH has been trying to show me? Or am I just seeing it for myself, in all it's ugly truth? Or perhaps the one is the same as the other?"

I suppose in the end it does not matter where the information comes from, so much as what I do with the information...

Today we are practically one big tribe. We need to take care where we go with that...have we had enough lessons of the past in order for something good to come of it?

[1213]

…It also begs the question of why gathering wood on the Sabbath warranted a cruel death, but many other infractions (eg. raping an unbetrothed virgin, beating a slave to within an inch of his life) received much lesser punishments - surely they should all be punished alike?

In most cases rape would be adultery, which has death penalty. Almost only case when rape would not be adultery is when both persons are virgins. It would be interesting to see the statistics how often virgins rape virgins. But, in that case, I think death penalty would not be good punishment.

Beating own slave is just very stupid even without any punishment. But it had punishment. And I think the punishment that Bible has is better in that case than death penalty, because the owner must take care of the slave that can’t work. If the owner would be killed, also the slave would have big problem.

And about the gathering of wood. It seems to be a special case, because it is said:

Because he has despised the word of Yahweh, and has broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be on him. While the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him in custody, because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Yahweh said to Moses, The man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside of the camp.
Num. 15:31-35

So, in that case Lord told what would be the punishment. The punishment didn’t come from the law in that case. Basically, the action showed that the person was not righteous and non-righteous people deserve death according to the Bible. It is more about is person evil, not so much about what was the action. The idea is to get rid of evil.

…put away the evil from the midst of you.
Deu. 13:5

Perhaps the person who gathered wood was so evil that the judgment had to be death in that case. Gathering wood was just one sign of the evilness.

[Zzyzx]

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The person showed he didn’t care about the law, and when people begin to do so, and ignore the law, the nation begins to erode and ceases to exist. One person itself is not the whole nation, but if one is allowed to do so, also others will follow, until the nation is destroyed.

Every nation has people who break the law and are not punished. Has that destroyed all nations?

[emilynghiem]

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The person showed he didn’t care about the law, and when people begin to do so, and ignore the law, the nation begins to erode and ceases to exist. One person itself is not the whole nation, but if one is allowed to do so, also others will follow, until the nation is destroyed.

Every nation has people who break the law and are not punished. Has that destroyed all nations?

Dear @Zzyzx and @1213

1.
Spiritually speaking, the unfixable evil is the sin of Unforgiveness.
Because that has to be removed first, by free will of the person ASKING help to forgive who is unable to otherwise,
before any other sins or evils can be resolved.

Unforgiveness blocks any other intervention or step needed to address or fix a problem or conflict.

Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

2. Politically speaking,
Anything causing BOTH
permanent damage to physical things that cannot be replaced or fixed
at the same time "killing the spirit" is the worst.

The Bible calls it destroying both the body and soul in hell:

KJV Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

My understanding is that the rape and destruction of genocide
that not only wipes out generations and cultures, but leaves
SCARS and phobias like Tribal Racism carried down to future generations
is the worst. Because the curse of unforgiven retribution "kills the spirit"
these injuries and injustice are CARRIED and repeated in the future.
If later generations carry memories of these sins AND FAIL TO FORGIVE,
again, the SIN of UNFORGIVENESS creates an ADDED LAYER which
allows the same cycle to repeat back and forth, over and over.
Like the endless Wars in the Middle East. Or the fight in America
over racism and who is responsible for reparations to Blacks or Natives.

What I find is MOST cases of "generational genocide" are linked to
SPIRITISM or CURSES, either sorcery or DARK ENERGY where
one tribe CURSES ANOTHER.

In the case of Black/White racial hostility, there is both
RAPE of the Irish/White slave lines and the Black/African
women BY BLACK SLAVES to breed more dark skin slaves with greater market value
AND there are influences from CULTS including SANTERIA and VOODOO
where tribes cursed each other to create long histories of genocidal warfare between them.

So these GENOCIDES involving Native American, African
and European tribes are still carried in later generations at war.

In particular the RAPES and forced breeding, the sterilizations
and killing off of Native tribes and destruction of sacred lands
creates such eternal hellfire of rage in the spirit, that it takes
several generations of death and suffering to let the fires burn out.

The Bible talks about SINS OF THE FATHERS revisited on the
sons to the fourth and fifth generations.

So whatever you see going on with political oppression, abuse
and corruption, if you look deep enough in the history, you will
see these are MANIFESTATIONS of genocidal tribal warfare
linked to DARK ENERGY, curses and UNFORGIVENESS festering in sickness
until the day these sins are given up to God through Christ
for Forgiveness and Redemption to break the cycle and bring
true justice and lasting peace. That healing comes with the
Holy Spirit. So Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice must be
received by all to break the cycles of war and genocidal destruction,
and bring in the Holy Spirit of peace and comfort to heal humanity.

[brunumb]

In most cases rape would be adultery, which has death penalty. Almost only case when rape would not be adultery is when both persons are virgins. It would be interesting to see the statistics how often virgins rape virgins. But, in that case, I think death penalty would not be good punishment.

Classifying rape according to the status of the victim is reprehensible. Rape is a vile act regardless. Adultery is a completely separate issue and imposing the death penalty as punishment is just as reprehensible. These are all the actions and attitudes of ignorant and superstitious people.

And about the gathering of wood. It seems to be a special case, because it is said:
Because he has despised the word of Yahweh, and has broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be on him. While the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him in custody, because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Yahweh said to Moses, The man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside of the camp.

Written by ignorant, primitive people and only serves to highlight that Yahweh is a barbarian god undeserving of any worship if that behaviour garners his approval. Killing people for gathering wood is simply an abomination.

[Aetixintro]

I feel it's the wrong question when examples of greater evil is to do evil outright! E.g. to torture (young) children, to make people evil by torturing them, I.e., the criminal personality conversions of people.

I can only refer you to The 10 Commandments, The Golden Rule, The Cardinal Virtues, The Cardinal Sins and Kantian Ethics in order to do what is proper. Democratic laws and regulations are helpful too, especially the human rights, UDHR.

When we live in 2020 CE and the World is full of problems, there are far more significant evil actions to punish than to "pick up sticks on the Sabbath", vis a vis our respect to the holy days of Sundays and other and see through that evil becomes a lesser force day by day, to do the greater good while reducing evil.

[JehovahsWitness]

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The person showed he didn’t care about the law, and when people begin to do so, and ignore the law, the nation begins to erode and ceases to exist. One person itself is not the whole nation, but if one is allowed to do so, also others will follow, until the nation is destroyed.

Every nation has people who break the law and are not punished. Has that destroyed all nations?

Every city has people that drink and drive yet are not killed, does that mean drinking and driving is not dangerous? We don't discard a precaution because some happen to escape unscathed when ignoring it. Otherwise we'd make shooting people in the head legal since some survive the experience.

The principle remains that undermining just laws of a nation endangers the survival of that nation. Law doesn't just protect the individual it protects the social structure within which the individual functions.



JW

[Zzyzx]

The person showed he didn’t care about the law, and when people begin to do so, and ignore the law, the nation begins to erode and ceases to exist. One person itself is not the whole nation, but if one is allowed to do so, also others will follow, until the nation is destroyed.

Every nation has people who break the law and are not punished. Has that destroyed all nations?

Every city has people that drink and drive yet are not killed, does that mean drinking and driving is not dangerous?[/color] We don't discard a precaution because some happen to escape unscathed when ignoring it. Otherwise we'd make shooting people in the head legal since some survive the experience.

Undermining just laws of a nation endangers the survival of that nation. The law doesnt just proect the individual it protects the social structure within which the individual functions.

The claim was that nations are destroyed by people breaking laws.

I ask for examples.

Has drunk driving destroyed nations?

[JehovahsWitness]

Has drunk driving destroyed nations?

Did I say drunk driving destroyed nations?