Freewill, in context, RIP

[Willum]

It amazes me that the "freewill," argument has persisted so long, and not been put in the ground earlier, but such is often the case with the truth.
Usually the freewill argument starts off in the Garden of Eden, inappropriately and deceptively. This approach reverses the argument so that it is debatable, but in context, there is no debate.

"Do what God wills, or go to Hell."

There is no room for freewill there.
God does not allow freewill.
QED.

[JehovahsWitness]

Further, when the full Bible is used we see that there are other references to predestination and the absence of free will. Take, as another example, the concept of "A man cannot receive anything unless God gives it from heaven." ~ John 3:27.

How in your opinion can John 3:27 be considered a reference to predestination and the absence of free will?



JW

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #50]

So, once again, you are asking me, as an authority on your religious works, since you do not know.
Since you do not know about your own religion, I find your opinion about it dismissible.

[koko]

How in your opinion can John 3:27 be considered a reference to predestination and the absence of free will?
JW

If you pray for something and don't get it from above, it proves you do not have free will to make or create life on your terms. For example, there have been people stuck in death row who were innocent and prayed for release. But, BOOM, they got croaked. Obviously, such an unhappy fate is proof of predestination.

[brunumb]

Not with animals. Only humans were made in the image of God.

Humans are animals. Please present evidence that animals died prior to the fall and that humans were made in the image of God. Ancient folklore is not evidence by the way.

God punished Adam and Eve for their disobedience. The punishment did not fit the crime. That puts his actions in the realm of vindictiveness. God clearly has an infinite ego along with his other allegedly infinite attributes.

[DavidLeon]

Not with animals. Only humans were made in the image of God.

Humans are animals. Please present evidence that animals died prior to the fall and that humans were made in the image of God. Ancient folklore is not evidence by the way.

God punished Adam and Eve for their disobedience. The punishment did not fit the crime. That puts his actions in the realm of vindictiveness. God clearly has an infinite ego along with his other allegedly infinite attributes.

Okay, humans are animals. It makes absolutely no difference what you call them. Pain, suffering, death etc. occurred in other animals prior to "the fall." If ancient folklore is not evidence that humans were made in the image of God on what basis do you determine that God's punishment of Adam and Eve didn't fit the crime, his actions were vindictive and he has an infinite ego?

I already demonstrated that the Bible is in agreement of God being vindictive by definition and I don't think that I would argue that the creator of the universe and everything has "an infinite ego."

What's your point?

[JehovahsWitness]

If you pray for something and don't get it from above, it proves you do not have free will to make or create life on your terms.

So for you "free will" can be defined as the ability to "make or create life on your terms"?


JW

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #56]

Again, it isn't about him, or me, or any personal definition of the terms of your myth.
That you persist in doing this, simply demonstrates your are unwilling to face the inconsistencies of your worship, and must criticize the ad hoc words used by others.

But let's examine the sacrifice you made to do this:
You are saying that whatever verbiage koko comes up with, has as much merit as your own beliefs, as it is more worth discussing than what you consider your religious truths.

That is an issue for you.

[koko]

If you pray for something and don't get it from above, it proves you do not have free will to make or create life on your terms.

So for you "free will" can be defined as the ability to "make or create life on your terms"?


JW

I would expand that to include the ability to be free of someone else's or of Nature's or of Fate's attempts as well.

[JehovahsWitness]

If you pray for something and don't get it from above, it proves you do not have free will to make or create life on your terms.

So for you "free will" can be defined as the ability to "make or create life on your terms"?


JW

I would expand that to include the ability to be free of someone else's or of Nature's or of Fate's attempts as well.

Fair enough duly noted. The OP did state one can take "free will" to mean whatever one likes, that's what you like.


Thanks for sharing,


JW

[Icey]

It amazes me that the "freewill," argument has persisted so long, and not been put in the ground earlier, but such is often the case with the truth.
Usually the freewill argument starts off in the Garden of Eden, inappropriately and deceptively. This approach reverses the argument so that it is debatable, but in context, there is no debate.

"Do what God wills, or go to Hell."

There is no room for freewill there.
God does not allow freewill.
QED.

Freewill is the battle cry for believers; it's more "stuff" they like to spout to support their lofty, illogical, misdirected belief system: 'You have free will - you're free to bow down and worship this killing deity or go to hell!'

Technically they're not wrong, just misguided by a lie they have accept to fit their needs.

But the jokes on them: if we go to hell we will be seeing almost all of them there.