What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by Difflugia »

Debate question: What does John mean by "the Word" in the Prologue of his Gospel (John 1:1-18)? What exactly is John claiming "became flesh and dwelt among us?"

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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by bjs1 »

The Word (logos in Greek, which comes from the verb lego meaning “I speak” or “I say”) is a complicated idea in Greek philosophy. There is no exact parallel to it in the modern world.

The closest comparison to the Word today is the eastern concept of the Tao. It is the underlying principle of the universe; the ground of all existence; the Ultimate Reality in which everything else which exists has its being.

In Greek philosophy the Word traces back to Heraclitus (535-475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge. The use of the Word expanded from there.

The Word is logical thought in people and the Word is logic itself (you have to read a lot Plato and Aristotle to get the full meaning there).

The Stoics developed the concept of the Word as the principle that gives life and order to all beings in the universe. They said that the Word exists in the human soul and in the universe. They included a moral aspect to this, saying that justice is found by living according the Word.

In short: the Word is not a thing, but the underlying essence of existence.

According to the Gospel of John, the Word became flesh.
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-Charles Darwin

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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by DavidLeon »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:16 am Debate question: What does John mean by "the Word" in the Prologue of his Gospel (John 1:1-18)? What exactly is John claiming "became flesh and dwelt among us?"
John's use of the word is much more simple than that of Greek philosophy or modern day theology. John uses it, with the definite article ho, to establish Jesus as the spokesperson, the representative of Jehovah. (John 14:24; 17:14; Luke 5:1)
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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by Difflugia »

bjs1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:08 amIn short: the Word is not a thing, but the underlying essence of existence.

According to the Gospel of John, the Word became flesh.
If it's not a thing, how did it become flesh? If I'm understanding you correctyl, you saying that it's the "underlying essence of existence" is an attribute of a thing (existence, in this case) without being an independent thing itself. An analogy might be something like an essay written in English possesses "Englishness," though "Englishness" isn't itself a thing. Or, since people sometimes do think of "Englishness" as a thing, maybe instead of "Englishness," it's something like "full of information," or even "lacking in spelling errors."

If that is what you mean, then is Jesus the equivalent of "Englishness" or "the state of being spelled correctly" made manifest?
DavidLeon wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:46 amJohn's use of the word is much more simple than that of Greek philosophy or modern day theology. John uses it, with the definite article ho, to establish Jesus as the spokesperson, the representative of Jehovah. (John 14:24; 17:14; Luke 5:1)
So, the Word is nothing more or less than a descriptive epithet for Jesus? Like saying the Windy City when talking about Chicago?

Please note that in both these cases, I'm asking you to clarify what you mean and not push your descriptions into molds that you didn't intend.

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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by DavidLeon »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:29 pm
bjs1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:08 amIn short: the Word is not a thing, but the underlying essence of existence.

According to the Gospel of John, the Word became flesh.
If it's not a thing, how did it become flesh? If I'm understanding you correctyl, you saying that it's the "underlying essence of existence" is an attribute of a thing (existence, in this case) without being an independent thing itself. An analogy might be something like an essay written in English possesses "Englishness," though "Englishness" isn't itself a thing. Or, since people sometimes do think of "Englishness" as a thing, maybe instead of "Englishness," it's something like "full of information," or even "lacking in spelling errors."

If that is what you mean, then is Jesus the equivalent of "Englishness" or "the state of being spelled correctly" made manifest?
DavidLeon wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:46 amJohn's use of the word is much more simple than that of Greek philosophy or modern day theology. John uses it, with the definite article ho, to establish Jesus as the spokesperson, the representative of Jehovah. (John 14:24; 17:14; Luke 5:1)
So, the Word is nothing more or less than a descriptive epithet for Jesus? Like saying the Windy City when talking about Chicago?

Please note that in both these cases, I'm asking you to clarify what you mean and not push your descriptions into molds that you didn't intend.
Well, it is a descriptive epithet, meaning Jesus spoke for Jehovah, not for himself. Jesus created all things with Jehovah's word. I would refer you to bjs1's post. Coming from the verb meaning "I speak" or "I say." Then of course, like all words, they become something more, or less, and are expanded in meaning. And also, if you think about the heavenly way, Tao, which can also mean doctrine, method, principle, or way, road and path. You can use any of these in pretty much the same way in application to Jesus. Jesus shows us the way, road, path etc.

But you also have to keep in mind the use of words changing or having alternative meanings. So though similar in a basic sense not necessarily identical in doctrinal application. Important because John doesn't necessarily apply the word the same as Greek philosophers as those applications evolve over time. The same, for example, with tartarus.

To clarify what Jesus as the word is, I don't think there is much need for clarification. He spoke God's word. Reflected it in perfect practice as we all can once sin is removed. Jesus was what we were intended to be. What those of faith will be. God's purpose for mankind complete and pure. Then, we may enter God's day of rest. [ETA] The word became manifest in Jesus, in the flesh.
bjs1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:08 am The Word (logos in Greek, which comes from the verb lego meaning “I speak” or “I say”) is a complicated idea in Greek philosophy. There is no exact parallel to it in the modern world.

The closest comparison to the Word today is the eastern concept of the Tao. It is the underlying principle of the universe; the ground of all existence; the Ultimate Reality in which everything else which exists has its being.

In Greek philosophy the Word traces back to Heraclitus (535-475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge. The use of the Word expanded from there.

The Word is logical thought in people and the Word is logic itself (you have to read a lot Plato and Aristotle to get the full meaning there).

The Stoics developed the concept of the Word as the principle that gives life and order to all beings in the universe. They said that the Word exists in the human soul and in the universe. They included a moral aspect to this, saying that justice is found by living according the Word.

In short: the Word is not a thing, but the underlying essence of existence.

According to the Gospel of John, the Word became flesh.
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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by 1213 »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:16 am Debate question: What does John mean by "the Word" in the Prologue of his Gospel (John 1:1-18)? What exactly is John claiming "became flesh and dwelt among us?"
Why could it not mean word? After all, God’s word came and worked among people.

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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:16 am Debate question: What does John mean by "the Word" in the Prologue of his Gospel (John 1:1-18)? What exactly is John claiming "became flesh and dwelt among us?"
Not a 'what', but rather a 'who':

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So the author of "John" meant that Christ (Jaheshua, the Son and Holy One of God) is the Word.

He (Christ) is also the Light (see also John 1), the Truth (John 14:6, 8:32, 8:36), the Way (John 14:6), the Life (John 14:6), the Amen (Rev 3:14), Wisdom (Proverbs 8), (to name a few).


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:16 am Debate question: What does John mean by "the Word" in the Prologue of his Gospel (John 1:1-18)?
"The Word" is a title*, attributed to a PERSON who was with God the Creator in "the beginning". The title reflects this individuals role as chief spokesman for God, the one through whom He communicates his thoughts and wishes.

* an example of antonomasia, a figure of speech in which some defining word or phrase is substituted for a person's proper name (modern example is this would be : Bruce Springsteen "The Boss", The Beatles as “The Fab Four” or refering to a love interest as "Mr Right")
For more TITLES that reflect Jesus role in Gods purpose see LINK here
viewtopic.php?p=1015344#p1015344

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:16 amWhat exactly is John claiming "became flesh and dwelt among us?"
The author is clear enough in communicating that he is refering to a WHO not a "what"....
JOHN 1:14, 15

So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”

.... and further

JOHN 1:32-37 John also bore witness, saying: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him. Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me: ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one who baptizes in holy spirit.’ And I have seen it, and I have given witness that this one is the Son of God. Again the next day, John was standing with two of his disciples, and as he looked at Jesus walking, he said: “See, the Lamb of God!” When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. ”




JW

FURTHER READING : Who is Jesus Christ?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005681


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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by bjs1 »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:29 pm
bjs1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:08 amIn short: the Word is not a thing, but the underlying essence of existence.

According to the Gospel of John, the Word became flesh.
If it's not a thing, how did it become flesh?
That is at least part of the point. Certainly Greek philosophers at the time would have asked the same question: “How can the Word become flesh?”

IMO, it is an invitation to contemplate the nature of God the Son and the unspeakable magnitude of the Incarnation.

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:29 pm If I'm understanding you correctyl, you saying that it's the "underlying essence of existence" is an attribute of a thing (existence, in this case) without being an independent thing itself.
Attribute is not quite the right word because I could remove an attribute from something and that thing be otherwise unchanged. For instance, I have brown hair. That is one of my attributes. Removing that would not significantly alter the rest of my nature. Or, to take the attribute of existence, if existence were not an attribute I have then I might be described as a fictional character that is otherwise unchanged from what I am now (just not real).

The Word goes deeper than that. It is the essence from which all possible attributes come. Again, there is no perfect analogy since this concept doesn’t exist in modern Western thought. I will point back to the Toa in Eastern thought as the closest we come in the modern world.

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:29 pm An analogy might be something like an essay written in English possesses "Englishness," though "Englishness" isn't itself a thing. Or, since people sometimes do think of "Englishness" as a thing, maybe instead of "Englishness," it's something like "full of information," or even "lacking in spelling errors."

If that is what you mean, then is Jesus the equivalent of "Englishness" or "the state of being spelled correctly" made manifest?
If we are going to take the essay analogy, then the Word would probably be closer to communication itself. So in this analogy saying “The Word became flesh” would be like saying “Communication became an essay.”

Perhaps this is what you meant by “Englishness.” I am not sure.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: What is "the Word" in John's Gospel?

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Post by bjs1 »

1213 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:26 pm
Difflugia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:16 am Debate question: What does John mean by "the Word" in the Prologue of his Gospel (John 1:1-18)? What exactly is John claiming "became flesh and dwelt among us?"
Why could it not mean word? After all, God’s word came and worked among people.
An objection and a question.

The objection: This seems to ignore the historical context of the Word in Greek thought. It seems unlikely that a writer at the time would reference such a well-known philosophy without making it clear that he was talking about something else.

The question: If the Word just means “word” as we use the term today, what does it mean that the Word became flesh?
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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