Should unbelievers be punished? Why?

[unknown soldier]

Why should unbelievers be punished for not believing what Christians claim? In what way is skepticism regarding the claims of Christ morally wrong?

[Miles]

Why should unbelievers be punished for not believing what Christians claim? In what way is skepticism regarding the claims of Christ morally wrong?

Because if their kind isn't punished they'll just spread their heresy across the country; polluting and decimating the ranks of Christianity until we, the leaders of the religion, will be forced to seek gainful employment elsewhere, perhaps even dirtying our hands in the process.

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[DavidLeon]

Why should unbelievers be punished for not believing what Christians claim? In what way is skepticism regarding the claims of Christ morally wrong?

Because if their kind isn't punished they'll just spread their heresy across the country; polluting and decimating the ranks of Christianity until we, the leaders of the religion, will be forced to seek gainful employment elsewhere, perhaps even dirtying our hands in the process.

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No. The book of Revelation says that's going to happen anyway.

[DavidLeon]

Why should unbelievers be punished for not believing what Christians claim? In what way is skepticism regarding the claims of Christ morally wrong?

Why think of it as punishment? If someone shows up to your house and says there's a horrible storm coming but if you want and you behave well, you can come with them and be saved from the storm and you say, nah. When the storm takes you out is that the person who invited you punishing you? No. That's you getting what you wanted, which wasn't what you thought it was.

[Overcomer]

We are all born with sin natures. Sin separates us from God. We cannot change our sin natures no matter how sincerely we try by doing good works, etc. This is why Christ came, to bring our spirits dead in sin to life in him by the power of the Holy Spirit. He gives us his righteousness -- a righteousness that he has because he is both God and man -- in exchange for our sins. When we accept his gift of salvation in faith, then we are given right-standing with God. The chasm between us disappears. We enter into a relationship with him, something that our sin natures had prevented us from doing.

Since Christ and Christ alone opens the door to relationship with God, it necessarily follows that anyone who does NOT accept Christ's gift of salvation will remain estranged from God for eternity.

I have heard people say that, if God is love, he should just forgive without punishing anyone. But love and a perfect sense of justice go hand in hand. Consider the following:

Let's say a man rapes and murders your mother and your sister. He appears in front of a judge. What would you have the judge do? If he said, "I am a loving judge. Therefore, I will not punish you. I will simply let you go", how would you feel about that? Does that seem just? Do you want that man to be free to rape and murder others? Would that seem loving to you, to the people who may be his next victims, to your sister and mother who lost their lives to this animal?"

That judge has to mete out punishment to someone who deserves it. The same is true of God.

[DavidLeon]

We are all born with sin natures. Sin separates us from God.

We were already separated from God before sin.

We cannot change our sin natures no matter how sincerely we try by doing good works, etc. This is why Christ came, to bring our spirits dead in sin to life in him by the power of the Holy Spirit. He gives us his righteousness -- a righteousness that he has because he is both God and man -- in exchange for our sins.

God and man? No man has seen God. He wasn't God. He and Jehovah are not the same. He was created by Jehovah.

When we accept his gift of salvation in faith, then we are given right-standing with God. The chasm between us disapears. We enter into a relationship with him, something that our sin natures had prevented us from doing.

Since Christ and Christ alone opens the door to relationship with God, it necessarily follows that anyone who does NOT accept Christ's gift of salvation will remain estranged from God for eternity.

Then why is there a resurrection of the unrighteous as well as the righteous?

I have heard people say that, if God is love, he should just forgive without punishing anyone. But love and a perfect sense of justice go hand in hand. Consider the following:

Let's say a man rapes and murders your mother and your sister. He appears in front of a judge. What would you have the judge do? If he said, "I am a loving judge. Therefore, I will not punish you. I will simply let you go", how would you feel about that? Does that seem just? Do you want that man to be free to rape and murder others? Would that seem loving to you, to the people who may be his next victims, to your sister and mother who lost their lives to this animal?"

That judge has to mete out punishment to someone who deserves it. The same is true of God.

But the rapist is forgiven if he, as you say, accepts Christ's gift of salvation.

[unknown soldier]

Because if their kind isn't punished they'll just spread their heresy across the country; polluting and decimating the ranks of Christianity until we, the leaders of the religion, will be forced to seek gainful employment elsewhere, perhaps even dirtying our hands in the process.

Yes, money in religion as in life is almost always a motivating factor. It's unlikely that people will give money to the clergy unless those people believe that their donations to the clergy will earn them a reward from Jesus. It's Christianity's version of return on investment.

[unknown soldier]

Why should unbelievers be punished for not believing what Christians claim? In what way is skepticism regarding the claims of Christ morally wrong?

Why think of it as punishment?

Because I've read the Bible and have listened to what Christians have to say about God's meting out horrific punishment on unbelievers (see Mark 16).

If someone shows up to your house and says there's a horrible storm coming but if you want and you behave well, you can come with them and be saved from the storm and you say, nah. When the storm takes you out is that the person who invited you punishing you? No. That's you getting what you wanted, which wasn't what you thought it was.

OK, but what if I knew that person to be dishonest and has often "cried wolf" frightening people for no good reason? And let's say I go outside seeing a clear sky, and the winds are calm. I then check the weather service, and I see that there is no storm forecast. I would be very foolish to heed that person's "warning" and in fact would be taking a risk by going anywhere with him.

I submit that my analogy fits Christianity far better than your analogy fits Christianity. There is no good reason to believe that anybody will face doom if they do not believe Christian claims. On the other hand, I know for a fact that believing Christian claims can be very risky and foolish. Skepticism, then, is the wiser response.

Anyway, I see you disagree with the New Testament's dogmas regarding punishment meted out to sinners by the Christian god. it's strange how much Christians deny their own Bible to defend it.

[DavidLeon]

Because I've read the Bible and have listened to what Christians have to say about God's meting out horrific punishment on unbelievers (see Mark 16).

I see. Mark 16:1-8 is about Jesus' memorial tomb and the remainder of the chapter is spurious, it doesn't appear in earlier manuscripts. It was added later.

If someone shows up to your house and says there's a horrible storm coming but if you want and you behave well, you can come with them and be saved from the storm and you say, nah. When the storm takes you out is that the person who invited you punishing you? No. That's you getting what you wanted, which wasn't what you thought it was.

OK, but what if I knew that person to be dishonest and has often "cried wolf" frightening people for no good reason? And let's say I go outside seeing a clear sky, and the winds are calm. I then check the weather service, and I see that there is no storm forecast. I would be very foolish to heed that person's "warning" and in fact would be taking a risk by going anywhere with him.

Your call.

I submit that my analogy fits Christianity far better than your analogy fits Christianity.

Well . . . you didn't know the source you used was spurious. That's not a good sign. You might be a little overconfident. But, still, like I said, it's your call.

There is no good reason to believe that anybody will face doom if they do not believe Christian claims.

There was the destruction of Jerusalem which Jesus foretold 40 years earlier. Many Christians listened and escaped. Those who didn't listen suffered horrible deaths.

On the other hand, I know for a fact that believing Christian claims can be very risky and foolish

No you don't.

Skepticism, then, is the wiser response.

No it isn't.

Anyway, I see you disagree with the New Testament's dogmas regarding punishment meted out to sinners by the Christian god. it's strange how much Christians deny their own Bible to defend it.

Perhaps some people disagree with your misrepresentation of the so called New Testament regarding punishment meted out to sinners by the Christian god. In at least this case that is the only thing I reject.

[unknown soldier]

We are all born with sin natures.

If God created us that way, then it was his decision to do so--not ours. It's grossly unjust for God to punish us for what he did.

Sin separates us from God.

As I see it, God being unreal appears to separate us from him.

We cannot change our sin natures no matter how sincerely we try by doing good works, etc.

Speak for yourself. I'm doing just fine.

This is why Christ came, to bring our spirits dead in sin to life in him by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Then prior to Christ, God wasn't able to "bring our spirits dead in sin to life in him by the power of the Holy Spirit." I suppose it's good that he got around to it!

He gives us his righteousness -- a righteousness that he has because he is both God and man -- in exchange for our sins.

How does being "God and man" make anybody righteous? To me, being righteous makes a person righteous.

When we accept his gift of salvation in faith, then we are given right-standing with God.

I think it would be better to earn salvation. That way more people would be motivated to do good.

Since Christ and Christ alone opens the door to relationship with God, it necessarily follows that anyone who does NOT accept Christ's gift of salvation will remain estranged from God for eternity.

As far as I can tell, I'm already estranged from God. It's not so bad. In fact, from what Christians tell me about God, I want to be estranged from him!

Let's say a man rapes and murders your mother and your sister.

That poor guy.

He appears in front of a judge. What would you have the judge do? If he said, "I am a loving judge. Therefore, I will not punish you. I will simply let you go", how would you feel about that? Does that seem just? Do you want that man to be free to rape and murder others? Would that seem loving to you, to the people who may be his next victims, to your sister and mother who lost their lives to this animal?"

That man or any dangerous criminal needs to be removed from society to protect society. However, I see no reason to harm those who commit crimes. Punishment is just a form of revenge, and it has failed miserably to make the world a better place. If people know that they may be punished for a crime, then they learn to avoid the punishment rather than the crime. And that's why Christianity fails to make people better: it tells people how to presumably avoid punishment but fails to make them avoid their crimes.

That judge has to mete out punishment to someone who deserves it. The same is true of God.

Human judges are very imperfect and limited. They may be vengeful as well. That's why they often "mete out punishment." A perfect God could do better than any human judge and find a solution to crime that does not involve hurting criminals.

Finally, you never posted a straight answer to my question. As I see it, no perfect God would threaten doubters with punishment. A made-up God presumably would because his creators would know that they needed all the help they can get.