God's Word And Its Reliability

[Miles]

.

Consider what god has said, or has inspired others to write:

The Coming of the Son of Man

Matthew 24:29-35
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Matthew 24:42-44
Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

1 Corinthians 7:29-31
29 Brothers and sisters, this is what I mean: We don’t have much time left. So starting now, those who have wives should be the same as those who don’t. 30 It should not be important whether you are sad or whether you are happy. If you buy something, it should not matter to you that you own it. 31 You should use the things of the world without letting them become important to you. This is how you should live, because this world, the way it is now, will soon be gone.

Luke 21:29–32
And He spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now near at hand. So likewise you, when you see these things come to pass, know you that the kingdom of God is near at hand. Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

Obviously god's promise here never materialized, so how should a person regard his word?

...........................................


Please explain your pick in light of the four verses above.

.

[unknown soldier]

Obviously god's promise here never materialized, so how should a person regard his word?

...........................................


Please explain your pick in light of the four verses above.

.

Well, those four verses obviously are vague, but we can say for sure that the gospel writer quotes a Jesus who thought that the end of the world would come within the lifetimes of his listeners. If Jesus is quoted accurately, then he was wrong. I would then describe the Bible as "questionable." There is some wiggle room there in those verses because they are vague, and I'm sure that Christian apologists can come up with ways to make them seem truthful.

[Miles]

.

Consider what god has said, or has inspired others to write:


The Coming of the Son of Man

Matthew 24:29-35
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Matthew 24:42-44
Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

1 Corinthians 7:29-31
29 Brothers and sisters, this is what I mean: We don’t have much time left. So starting now, those who have wives should be the same as those who don’t. 30 It should not be important whether you are sad or whether you are happy. If you buy something, it should not matter to you that you own it. 31 You should use the things of the world without letting them become important to you. This is how you should live, because this world, the way it is now, will soon be gone.

Luke 21:29–32
And He spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now near at hand. So likewise you, when you see these things come to pass, know you that the kingdom of God is near at hand. Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

Well, those four verses obviously are vague, but we can say for sure that the gospel writer quotes a Jesus who thought that the end of the world would come within the lifetimes of his listeners. If Jesus is quoted accurately, then he was wrong. I would then describe the Bible as "questionable." There is some wiggle room there in those verses because they are vague, and I'm sure that Christian apologists can come up with ways to make them seem truthful.

Then you see a vagueness I don't. Please point out what you find to be vague in:

1) Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

2) for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

3) This is how you should live, because this world, the way it is now, will soon be gone.

4) This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

.

[1213]

...
Obviously god's promise here never materialized, so how should a person regard his word?

By what the Bible tells, Jesus is not himself the one and only true God, but, I trust to what he says in the Bible. And I think it would be good to notice also this:

But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt. 24:36

Jesus doesn’t really claim to know the exact day. He knows things that will happen, and I believe all that should have happened, has happened.

[Overcomer]

Forgive me for cutting and pasting, but, as usual, I'm short on time:

The key to understanding what Jesus meant by “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” is the context; that is, we must understand the verses that are surrounding Matthew 24:34, especially the verses prior to it. In Matthew 24:4–31, Jesus is clearly giving a prophecy; He is speaking of future events. Jesus had already told those living during His earthly ministry that the kingdom had been taken from them (Matthew 21:43). Therefore, it is imperative that Matthew 24–25 be seen as dealing with a future time. The generation that Jesus speaks of “not passing” until He returns is a future generation, namely, the people living when the predicted events occur. The word generation refers to the people alive in the future when the events of Matthew 24–25 take place.

Jesus’ point in His statement, “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place,” is that the events of the end times will happen quickly. Once the signs of the end begin to be observed, the end is well on the way—the second coming and the judgment will occur within that last generation. Jesus reinforced this meaning with a parable in Matthew 24:32–33: “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.” A sure sign of summer is the leafing of the fig tree; a sure sign of the end of the world is that “all these things” (of Matthew 24) are taking place. Those who are on the earth then will have only a short time left.

Another interpretation is that Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24 has a “double fulfillment.” In this view, “this generation” is the people Jesus was speaking to at that moment—some of what He predicted was going to occur during their lifetimes. So, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70, Jesus’ prophecy was fulfilled in part; the fall of Jerusalem provided a foretaste of worse things to come. However, many aspects of Jesus’ prophecy did not occur in AD 70; for example, the celestial signs of Matthew 24:29–31.The main problem with the “dual-fulfillment” interpretation is that it does not harmonize with Jesus’ statement that “all” these things will take place in “this generation.” Therefore, it is better to understand “this generation” as referring to the generation alive when the end times events are actually occurring.

https://www.gotquestions.org/this-gener ... -pass.html

[Miles]

...
Obviously god's promise here never materialized, so how should a person regard his word?

By what the Bible tells, Jesus is not himself the one and only true God, but, I trust to what he says in the Bible. And I think it would be good to notice also this:

But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt. 24:36

Jesus doesn’t really claim to know the exact day. He knows things that will happen, and I believe all that should have happened, has happened.

No he doesn't, but he does talk about will happen within the current generation,

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

and

This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

and in particular those he's addressing.

for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Plus the words of Paul.

This is how you should live, because this world, the way it is now, will soon be gone.

.

[Miles]

Forgive me for cutting and pasting, but, as usual, I'm short on time:

The key to understanding what Jesus meant by “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” is the context; that is, we must understand the verses that are surrounding Matthew 24:34, especially the verses prior to it. In Matthew 24:4–31, Jesus is clearly giving a prophecy; He is speaking of future events. Jesus had already told those living during His earthly ministry that the kingdom had been taken from them (Matthew 21:43).


Nope. Matthew 21:43 reads:
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be [or will be] taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Therefore, it is imperative that Matthew 24–25 be seen as dealing with a future time. The generation that Jesus speaks of “not passing” until He returns is a future generation, namely, the people living when the predicted events occur. The word generation refers to the people alive in the future when the events of Matthew 24–25 take place.

Nope. Matthew 24:33-34 specifically says:

33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35

Jesus’ point in His statement, “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place,” is that the events of the end times will happen quickly.

Yup, within the generation of those he is speaking to.

.

[PinSeeker]

Yup, within the generation of those he is speaking to.

Well actually... no and yes ("yup"). You and Overcomer are both right, but in different contexts.

Like all Biblical prophecy, what Jesus said here had both an immediate context and a more distant ultimate context. The immediate context -- and the context in which you are right, Miles -- is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which, at the time Jesus was speaking, would happen in about forty years. But the more distant ultimate context is the context in which Overcomer is right. To leave out the immediate for the ultimate is not right, but to leave out the ultimate for the immediate is also incorrect. This is what theologians call prophetic foreshortening. All the prophets did this... Isaiah, Micah, Zechariah, Amos, Habakkuk, Hosea, all of them... and so did Jesus here. The difference, though, between Jesus and all of the aforementioned prophets as that He was the only one Who really understood the whole breadth of the words of God that He was relating to His hearers, because He was/is God made man.

Grace and peace to you all.

[Miles]

Yup, within the generation of those he is speaking to.

Well actually... no and yes ("yup"). You and Overcomer are both right, but in different contexts.

Like all Biblical prophecy, what Jesus said here had both an immediate context and a more distant ultimate context. The immediate context -- and the context in which you are right, Miles -- is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which, at the time Jesus was speaking, would happen in about forty years.

Nope. It's far more than just the destruction of Jerusalem.

Jesus speaking in Matthew 24:29-35
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Believe me, all the tribes of the earth would not be mourning the destruction of Jerusalem. Nor would Heaven and earth pass away just because Jerusalem is destroyed.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Obviously god's promise here never materialized, so how should a person regard his word?

Some of God's promises are yet for the future. We can be confident they will be because biblically none of his promises have failed in the past.

ISAIAH 55:11

So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, and it will have sure success in what I send it to do

JW

RELATED POSTS


What can we say to those that say Christ never returned as promised?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 58#p978058


Matthew 24:29-35

What is "biblical" generation ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p898902

What is the generation Jesus said would see the end of the present system of things?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p775061

Why did Jesus refer to a generation not "passing away" if he was referring to a single event?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 19#p752219