God's Word And Its Reliability

[Miles]

.

Consider what god has said, or has inspired others to write:

The Coming of the Son of Man

Matthew 24:29-35
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Matthew 24:42-44
Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

1 Corinthians 7:29-31
29 Brothers and sisters, this is what I mean: We don’t have much time left. So starting now, those who have wives should be the same as those who don’t. 30 It should not be important whether you are sad or whether you are happy. If you buy something, it should not matter to you that you own it. 31 You should use the things of the world without letting them become important to you. This is how you should live, because this world, the way it is now, will soon be gone.

Luke 21:29–32
And He spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now near at hand. So likewise you, when you see these things come to pass, know you that the kingdom of God is near at hand. Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

Obviously god's promise here never materialized, so how should a person regard his word?

...........................................


Please explain your pick in light of the four verses above.

.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #1]


Well, for the sake of clarity (and truth), God's Word is not the bible. God's Word is Christ.

The bible can (and does) have errors in it, due to the erring pen of the scribes (see Jeremiah 8:8), even if one just considered copyist/translation errors (which exist).

Christ is the One who is without error.

As for "this generation", and the promises you reference, Christ's words have not failed.


From a previous "This generation" topic (I think there are others, but this is the first one I found):

We (who belong to Christ, who are adopted as sons) are the same generation... all with God as our Father... all being brothers and sisters. It does not matter 'when' on the timeline we are born; we are 'this' generation that will not pass away before all these things happen. 'This' generation will still be here (still exist) by the time all these things happen; 'it' will not have passed away.

It is not even an obscure meaning:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1074&t=KJV



I - fathered, birth, nativity

II - that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

...... A - the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

.......B - metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character,
............ i - esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

III - the whole multitude of men living at the same time

IV - an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

viewtopic.php?p=939171#p939171

viewtopic.php?p=941196#p941196

viewtopic.php?p=941835#p941835

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Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[DavidLeon]

Right. So, what you are doing when you're poking fun at me in this post, is actually showing where I'm right without knowing you are showing me I'm right because you don't make the subtle distinction. Subtle but very important.

2 Timothy 3:16 says all scripture. What is all scripture? WHEN 2 Timothy 3:16 was written? In other words, who wrote it, what was it referring to and who was it addressed to at what time?

"What is all scripture?" you ask! In as much as Christians consider the Bible to have been written or inspired by an omniscient god, who would know that every piece of scripture---that which had been written and that which will be written---would comprise "ALL scripture," it would be foolish to ask any "who," "what," and "when" questions.

....................."All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"

Boy you guys have a strange way of formatting. Is that leftover from the other forum? Anyway ...

World War I wasn't called World War I until World War II. Does that make sense? Scripture isn't scripture until it's scripture. Paul was telling the people of his time how the scriptures that had been established, what we erroneously refer to as the Old Testament, is beneficial for those things, though no longer law. He wasn't talking about what hadn't yet been written by him and the other writers of the so called New Testament because they hadn't been written yet. Not that those (NT) writings wouldn't be beneficial for the same things, but they were not yet so they weren't specifically what he was referring to.

That's the first point.

Let's take that one step further by considering two other verses.

Leviticus 11:7-8 "Also the pig, because it is a splitter of the hoof and a former of a cleft in the hoof, but it itself does not chew the cud. It is unclean for you. You must not eat any of their flesh, and you must not touch their dead body. They are unclean for you."

Revelation 22:18: "I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll."

Do you see?

Nope. I haven't a clue as to what your point is.

.

Okay. God's holy spirit is called his hands in a figurative sense. It is the means by which he accomplishes things. Genesis chapter one says it was "moving to and fro over the surface of the waters" (Genesis 1:2) When God wants someone to do something, like prophets, or apostles for example, he uses his holy spirit to make sure they do it right. That is called inspiration. "God breathed." (Spirit is invisible active force; breath, wind, mental inclination) So when the writers of the Bible were writing they were under the power of the holy spirit. It was guiding them. It was very important to God that they not write of their own volition but of his so they wrote what he wanted them to rather than what they wanted to.

The Bible is a collection of those writings which are translated. The translation isn't inspired. Why? Because it isn't any longer important to make absolutely sure those writings are preserved perfectly. Like the people Paul was addressing in 2 Timothy 3:16 where the scriptures were specifically the so called OT, and didn't mean the same thing to those people listening to Paul as they had meant to the Jews in their lives when those scriptures were written.

So, the verse I gave on eating pigs didn't apply to the Christians just as adding to the writings of Revelation doesn't apply to us. The Bible is a collection of books that span a long time and it records things that are specific to various people in a specific place and time. Adam's experience wasn't the same as David's and David's wasn't the same as Paul's. So the Bible isn't written for us, it is specifically written for the people in the time in which it was written but still is useful to us for the things Paul mentions.

Make sense?

[brunumb]

When God wants someone to do something, like prophets, or apostles for example, he uses his holy spirit to make sure they do it right. That is called inspiration. "God breathed." (Spirit is invisible active force; breath, wind, mental inclination) So when the writers of the Bible were writing they were under the power of the holy spirit. It was guiding them. It was very important to God that they not write of their own volition but of his so they wrote what he wanted them to rather than what they wanted to.

Assumes facts not in evidence, but your opinion is noted.

So the Bible isn't written for us, it is specifically written for the people in the time in which it was written but still is useful to us for the things Paul mentions.

Like the two-witness rule Jehovah’s Witnesses derive scriptural support for that is very useful in protecting the multitude of pedophiles and sexual predators in their midst.

[DavidLeon]

When God wants someone to do something, like prophets, or apostles for example, he uses his holy spirit to make sure they do it right. That is called inspiration. "God breathed." (Spirit is invisible active force; breath, wind, mental inclination) So when the writers of the Bible were writing they were under the power of the holy spirit. It was guiding them. It was very important to God that they not write of their own volition but of his so they wrote what he wanted them to rather than what they wanted to.

Assumes facts not in evidence, but your opinion is noted.

Nice dodge.

So the Bible isn't written for us, it is specifically written for the people in the time in which it was written but still is useful to us for the things Paul mentions.

Like the two-witness rule Jehovah’s Witnesses derive scriptural support for that is very useful in protecting the multitude of pedophiles and sexual predators in their midst.

That's actually an excellent point, brunumb, and true, but what is their motivation behind it? Why would they do such an abominable thing? Could you tell me as if you were in a court of law and weren't likely to use atheist platitudes? In other words give me a reasonable response and don't just use the question to spout something juvenile.

[Miles]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #1]


Well, for the sake of clarity (and truth), God's Word is not the bible. God's Word is Christ.

Definition and usages of "god's word."

God's Word
noun: the Bible.

source: dictionary.com

__________________


"A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very Word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history."
source

__________________

"How should I study to find the meaning of God's Word?
Discover Scripture’s Meaning
research God’s Word to gain key insights

A key to engrafting God’s Word into our lives is deepening our understanding of it by studying passages of Scripture, understanding the meanings of root words, and considering cross-references and historical data."
source

__________________

"What Does God’s Word Mean To You?

It’s the Word of God that serves as the foundation for faith. It’s through faith that the worlds were framed and created through the Word of God (Heb 11:3). Do we fully appreciate the importance of God’s Word and its meaning for our lives? The study and love for the Word of God should be foundational in the life of a believer. This goes beyond the casual mentioning of verses or knowledge of many of the biblical stories that may be known to us. The Word of God is a “Living Word” and it has power in the establishing of God’s Kingdom upon earth. "
source

__________________


"2. God’s word demands what is right.

The psalmist gladly acknowledges God’s right to issue commands and humbly accepts that all these commands are right. “I know, O Lord, that your rules are righteous,” he says (Ps. 119:75). All God’s commandments are sure (v. 86). All his precepts are right (v. 128). I sometimes hear Christians admit that they don’t like what the Bible says, but since it’s the Bible they have to obey it."
source

Conclusion: God's Word = the Bible.

The bible can (and does) have errors in it, due to the erring pen of the scribes (see Jeremiah 8:8), even if one just considered copyist/translation errors (which exist).

Absolutely.

[DavidLeon]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #1]


Well, for the sake of clarity (and truth), God's Word is not the bible. God's Word is Christ.

Definition and usages of "god's word."

God's Word
noun: the Bible.

source: dictionary.com

__________________


"A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very Word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history."
source

__________________

"How should I study to find the meaning of God's Word?
Discover Scripture’s Meaning
research God’s Word to gain key insights

A key to engrafting God’s Word into our lives is deepening our understanding of it by studying passages of Scripture, understanding the meanings of root words, and considering cross-references and historical data."
source

__________________

"What Does God’s Word Mean To You?

It’s the Word of God that serves as the foundation for faith. It’s through faith that the worlds were framed and created through the Word of God (Heb 11:3). Do we fully appreciate the importance of God’s Word and its meaning for our lives? The study and love for the Word of God should be foundational in the life of a believer. This goes beyond the casual mentioning of verses or knowledge of many of the biblical stories that may be known to us. The Word of God is a “Living Word” and it has power in the establishing of God’s Kingdom upon earth. "
source

__________________


"2. God’s word demands what is right.

The psalmist gladly acknowledges God’s right to issue commands and humbly accepts that all these commands are right. “I know, O Lord, that your rules are righteous,” he says (Ps. 119:75). All God’s commandments are sure (v. 86). All his precepts are right (v. 128). I sometimes hear Christians admit that they don’t like what the Bible says, but since it’s the Bible they have to obey it."
source

Conclusion: God's Word = the Bible.

The bible can (and does) have errors in it, due to the erring pen of the scribes (see Jeremiah 8:8), even if one just considered copyist/translation errors (which exist).

Absolutely.

The distinction to be made is that God's word given under inspiration and God's word given to you by an imperfect translation are not the same and don't necessarily apply to someone reading it today as it would have to the people who it was originally given.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #1]


Well, for the sake of clarity (and truth), God's Word is not the bible. God's Word is Christ.

Definition and usages of "god's word."

God's Word
noun: the Bible.

source: dictionary.com

__________________


"A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very Word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history."
source

Are you claiming that dictionary.com is evidence that the Bible is God's Word?

I wonder if dictionary.com ever quotes where 'the bible' claims to be the very Word of God.

__________________

"How should I study to find the meaning of God's Word?
Discover Scripture’s Meaning
research God’s Word to gain key insights

A key to engrafting God’s Word into our lives is deepening our understanding of it by studying passages of Scripture, understanding the meanings of root words, and considering cross-references and historical data."
source

__________________

"What Does God’s Word Mean To You?

It’s the Word of God that serves as the foundation for faith. It’s through faith that the worlds were framed and created through the Word of God (Heb 11:3). Do we fully appreciate the importance of God’s Word and its meaning for our lives? The study and love for the Word of God should be foundational in the life of a believer. This goes beyond the casual mentioning of verses or knowledge of many of the biblical stories that may be known to us. The Word of God is a “Living Word” and it has power in the establishing of God’s Kingdom upon earth. "
source

__________________

Are you meaning to suggest that it must be true just because some religious organizations claim it to be?



The bible does not claim itself to be the Word of God. Passages in the bible point to Christ being the Word of God:


The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14


He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:13


And of course, when prophets reported that the Word of God came to them (1Chronicles 17:3, for example), it would make no sense to suggest that they meant 'the bible'.


**

I will agree with something from that description though. The Word of God is indeed a living Word. Because the Word of God is a living being: Christ, the Son and Holy One of God. He is the Rock upon whom our faith (if we have faith) is built. He - the Word of God - is the foundation of our faith. And HE is the One who establishes God's Kingdom upon the earth (first within us who belong to Him, and then, when He returns, upon the earth).

"2. God’s word demands what is right.

The psalmist gladly acknowledges God’s right to issue commands and humbly accepts that all these commands are right. “I know, O Lord, that your rules are righteous,” he says (Ps. 119:75). All God’s commandments are sure (v. 86). All his precepts are right (v. 128). I sometimes hear Christians admit that they don’t like what the Bible says, but since it’s the Bible they have to obey it."
source[/indent][/indent]


Conclusion: God's Word = the Bible.

See above.

The bible can (and does) have errors in it, due to the erring pen of the scribes (see Jeremiah 8:8), even if one just considered copyist/translation errors (which exist).

Absolutely.

Yes.



Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Miles]

Peace to you!

Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #1]


Well, for the sake of clarity (and truth), God's Word is not the bible. God's Word is Christ.

Definition and usages of "god's word."

God's Word
noun: the Bible.

source: dictionary.com

__________________


"A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very Word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history."
source

Are you claiming that dictionary.com is evidence that the Bible is God's Word?

No, I'm claiming that the dictionary, like all dictionaries would, is defining the term by its most poplar usage.

__________________

"How should I study to find the meaning of God's Word?
Discover Scripture’s Meaning
research God’s Word to gain key insights

A key to engrafting God’s Word into our lives is deepening our understanding of it by studying passages of Scripture, understanding the meanings of root words, and considering cross-references and historical data."
source

__________________

"What Does God’s Word Mean To You?

It’s the Word of God that serves as the foundation for faith. It’s through faith that the worlds were framed and created through the Word of God (Heb 11:3). Do we fully appreciate the importance of God’s Word and its meaning for our lives? The study and love for the Word of God should be foundational in the life of a believer. This goes beyond the casual mentioning of verses or knowledge of many of the biblical stories that may be known to us. The Word of God is a “Living Word” and it has power in the establishing of God’s Kingdom upon earth. "
source

__________________

Are you meaning to suggest that it must be true just because some religious organizations claim it to be?

Not suggesting anything, but telling you that its most popular usage is to denote the Bible.

The bible does not claim itself to be the Word of God. Passages in the bible point to Christ being the Word of God:

Yet in today's usage the term "God’s Word," not necessarily "the Word of God," denotes the Bible, which I've shown by the five examples I gave. Don't like it? Fine, but that's the way the English language works. Today. . .

"God’s Word" = the Bible



Oh yes, here are two more usages to chew on:

Can We Really Know If The Bible Is God’s Word?

In God-Breathed—the Undeniable Power and Reliability of Scripture, Josh chronicles his recent identification of ancient fragments and a 540-year-old Torah, along with his personal journey to faith as an unbelieving skeptic of Christianity and the Bible, to present a compelling case that God’s Word can be trusted to be undeniably reliable.
source

______________________________

“THE POWER of GOD’S WORD”

by Dr. D. W. Ekstrand

The great reformers, Martin Luther & John Calvin, specifically said that the Bible is God’s Word. The Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England state that the Bible is “God’s Word written,” while the Westminster Confession affirms that since God is the author of Scripture it ought to be received because it is the “Word of God.” Thus to speak of Scripture is to accurately specify it as “God’s Word written.”
source

[Diagoras]

What appears most reliable in this thread is the tendency for argument to go off on a tangent to the initial question.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #38]

No, I'm claiming that it, like all dictionaries would, is defining the term by its most poplar usage.

Sure, but that doesn't make it true. Nor do Martin Luther or Calvin make it true - today or any other day.

**
And God's Word = Word of God. It means the same thing and these descriptions are used interchangeably (even by the people you used in your examples).

What appears most reliable in this thread is the tendency for argument to go off on a tangent to the initial question.

I thought my answers were clear (even though I did not use the scale presented in the OP).

The Word of God (Christ) is absolutely reliable. There are no errors in Him. He speaks the truth.

I don't know how to rate the bible on that scale; I accept what is written with the understanding that there are scribal errors (which can change an entire meaning sometimes). The bible does not lead people into all truth. (Some truths, sure. But Christ promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth, and He is the One who opens the scriptures so that a person can understand what is written.) I also test everything said or written about God against Christ - He is the Truth and Image and Word of God, after all. He is the One who shows us God as God truly is.



In addition to that, the example given in the OP is not an example of a failed promise. It is a misunderstanding of what was written. But I addressed that in my original post on this thread.




Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy