History

[1213]

Often it is asked can Christian demonstrate something that happened long time ago to be a fact. I don’t know how to demonstrate any historical matter to be a fact. So, my question is, can you prove any historical matter to be a fact? Please give one example and how would you demonstrate it is a fact and not just someone’s story?

[Willum]

[Replying to 1213 in post #20]
Perhaps, but we can prove fairytales, such as turning water to wine and resurrection, false.

The point you have been avoiding like the plague.

[brunumb]

It seems to me that the answer to my opening post is, that people can’t prove any historical matter to be a fact.

I guess that makes a lot of the Bible stories questionable too. It's interesting to note that historical matters that are regarded as essentially factual do not include any miraculous events. You only find those in ancient comic books such as the Bible.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #20]
Perhaps, but we can prove fairytales, such as turning water to wine and resurrection, false.

The point you have been avoiding like the plague.

The point of this topic was not to prove Biblical story. So, could you answer to question: why it is not usually required from common historical matters, but in Biblical history to demonstrate it to be true?

And now that you made the claim that you can prove something false, please show how, if you want that I take you seriously?

[1213]

... You only find those in ancient comic books such as the Bible.

By what I see, "miracle" is only subjective opinion about a matter that person doesn’t understand well. However, I think you should go to your local public library and ask if they have ancient Bible and one comic book and then make a comparison, you apparently have not seen either of them.

According to Wikipedia:
“A comic book or comicbook, also called comic magazine or simply comic, is a publication that consists of comics art in the form of sequential juxtaposed panels that represent individual scenes. Panels are often accompanied by descriptive prose and written narrative, usually, dialog contained in word balloons emblematic of the comics art form.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_book

Ancient Bible is not a comic book by that definition. However, any matter could be written/drawn in comic book form, so it doesn’t actually tell anything about the subject.

[Willum]

[Replying to 1213 in post #23]

Because history claims men did things, the Bible claims fairytales are real.
It is not complicated.

As for proving water cannot be turned to wine, and similar.
Water is two hydrogen, one oxygen. To transform it to wine would be to make sophisticated compounds of carbon, nitrogen, and so on from them. The energy in a star without the damage. Quite impossible.

[Hawkins]

Often it is asked can Christian demonstrate something that happened long time ago to be a fact. I don’t know how to demonstrate any historical matter to be a fact. So, my question is, can you prove any historical matter to be a fact? Please give one example and how would you demonstrate it is a fact and not just someone’s story?

Someone coming back from death. For the sake of argument, let's assume that it is true. Then how acceptable it is for secular media to treat it as a piece of truth? There are possibly more than 10,000 cases of NDE experience. Will their experience be conveyed by our legit media. The answer is no. In an ancient world, who knows who is buried in grave and who knows who is resurrected? Only a family with close relative know such a scenario. Then how many will believe with these family members claim that the one buried has revived. Religious people in the same living circle may believe. Will the authority take it seriously? Even when Herob the king and his authority believed, he's afraid of making it public or as a formal record as his own authority is endangered. More likely he will presume that it is a rumor or another potential revolution/rebellion against his own authority in the name of religion. Will the Roman authority take it seriously when a bunch of Jewish villagers claim that someone is resurrected? I doubt that.

In a nutshell, secular authority won't convey a supernatural event. Even when it is formally recorded down, say by a much less organiized Jewish government, the record is subject to be removed from book after several generations later. A supernatural account of records won't last long. A formal record existed 2000 years ago, may be removed by serious historians 1500 years ago, they will choose to reject whatever records seem to be ridiculous to them in a secular sense.

As another example, are there supernatural records in the 5000 years of Chinese history? I think so, but I don't think today's people will treat those records seriously. They don't believe the record is sincerely recorded, they'd rather take it as a sense of superstition of ancient humans. We can't tell how many such a kind of records have already been removed from history along the 5000 years when histories are conveyed through generations by generations.

That's why a supernatural record can only be sincerely kept by a religion. A truth of a God can only be kept by a chosen people. Only they will both record and convey such a truth (let's assume so for the sake of argument) faithfully.

Once upon a time, Jesus as the Christ being resurrected was recorded in the book of Josephus. The texts are edited or removed because later scholars and historians suspect that it shouldn't be originally so as it appeared to be too Christian to be reckoned. This shows that even in the case that Jesus as Christ and being resurrected is sincerely recorded by Josephus, it will be removed by modern scholars and modern historians simply because it is hard to believe.

[1213]

…the Bible claims fairytales are real…

It is sad if you don’t understand that you lose all credibility with such false arguments.

…
As for proving water cannot be turned to wine, and similar.
Water is two hydrogen, one oxygen. To transform it to wine would be to make sophisticated compounds of carbon, nitrogen, and so on from them. The energy in a star without the damage. Quite impossible.

I understand it is impossible to you. But I don’t think you are good measure for what is possible for all.

Also, as I think I earlier said, I don’t think the point of Bible is that people believe that the “miracles” actually happened. The point is that people would become righteous, get the wisdom of the just. For that, it is not necessary to believe what happened 2000 years ago. I think the “miracles” were for those people who saw Jesus.

[1213]

…As another example, are there supernatural records in the 5000 years of Chinese history? I think so, but I don't think today's people will treat those records seriously. They don't believe the record is sincerely recorded, they'd rather take it as a sense of superstition of ancient humans. …
…Once upon a time, Jesus as the Christ being resurrected was recorded in the book of Josephus. The texts are edited or removed because later scholars and historians suspect that it shouldn't be originally so as it appeared to be too Christian to be reckoned. This shows that even in the case that Jesus as Christ and being resurrected is sincerely recorded by Josephus, it will be removed by modern scholars and modern historians simply because it is hard to believe.

I think that is an interesting idea. So, basically it is not possible to have anything supernatural, even if it would be true. Sounds very biased. But nice to know that there is no way to prove miracles, because even if true, people would think it can’t be true.

[Willum]

…the Bible claims fairytales are real…

It is sad if you don’t understand that you lose all credibility with such false arguments.

It is sad you don’t understand.

…
As for proving water cannot be turned to wine, and similar.
Water is two hydrogen, one oxygen. To transform it to wine would be to make sophisticated compounds of carbon, nitrogen, and so on from them. The energy in a star without the damage. Quite impossible.

I understand it is impossible to you. But I don’t think you are good measure for what is possible for all.

Also, as I think I earlier said, I don’t think the point of Bible is that people believe that the “miracles” actually happened. The point is that people would become righteous, get the wisdom of the just. For that, it is not necessary to believe what happened 2000 years ago. I think the “miracles” were for those people who saw Jesus.

Yes, it is impossible for me. But for my imaginary friend, it is possible. My imaginary friend can do anything... he even ate your god.

See how that works?

[Goat]

... made no significant impression on anybody ...

If that would be true, we would not have the Bible.

How is that a true statement? What is your reasoning, and what evidence causes you to claim that?