The Immoral God

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

The Immoral God

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


I only say "immoral" because I don't feel god's actions as described below are moral.


Question 1: is owning other human beings as property moral?
Question 2: is accepting a burnt human offering to oneself moral?

God says "Yes."

1) Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.


2) Judges 11:30-32:
30 Jephthah made this vow to the Lord: “If you in fact hand over the Ammonites to me, 31 whoever comes out the doors of my house to greet me when I return safely from the Ammonites will belong to the Lord, and I will offer that person as a burnt offering.”
32 Jephthah crossed over to the Ammonites to fight against them, and the Lord handed them over to him. [God accepts and keeps his part of the bargain]

and

Judges 11: 34-39
34 When Jephthah went to his home in Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with tambourines and dancing! She was his only child; he had no other son or daughter besides her. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, “No! Not my daughter! You have devastated me! You have brought great misery on me.[a] I have given my word to the Lord and cannot take it back.”
36 Then she said to him, “My father, you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me as you have said, for the Lord brought vengeance on your enemies, the Ammonites.” 37 She also said to her father, “Let me do this one thing: Let me wander two months through the mountains with my friends and mourn my virginity.”
38 “Go,” he said. And he sent her away two months. So she left with her friends and mourned her virginity as she wandered through the mountains. 39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, and he kept the vow he had made about her. . . . . [Jephthah keeps his part of the bargain ]


Now,

if you don't feel I've properly understood either of these pieces of scripture please clue me in.
if you do feel I've properly understood both of these pieces of scripture do you feel the god of Abraham is still moral or not? If so, why?



.

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: The Immoral God

Post #81

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:44 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:15 pmAnd, as I've pointed out before, "kill" in verse 32 occurs in only 15% of the 60 bibles I checked. All the others use the words "gore" (61%), which means to be pierced; "assault"; "assail"; "push"; or "wound."
That verse 32 refers to "gore" Hebrew nagach is not under dispute*

* You claim (but have not proven) that some translations translate nagach as "killed" but since no references for this have been provided I have no reason to accept this as true.
Well, not "killed," but "kill' and kills."

Exodus 21:32

CEV
If the bull kills a slave, you must pay the slave owner thirty pieces of silver for the loss of the slave, and the bull must be killed by stoning.

ERV
But if the bull kills a slave, the owner of the animal must pay the master 30 pieces of silver. And the bull must also be killed with stones. This law will be the same for men and women slaves.

EXB
If the ·bull [ox] ·kills [gores] a male or female slave, the owner must pay the master ·the price for a new slave, or twelve ounces [L thirty shekels] of silver, and the ·bull [ox] must also be stoned to death.

GNT
If the bull kills a male or female slave, its owner shall pay the owner of the slave thirty pieces of silver, and the bull shall be stoned to death.

ICB
But the bull might kill a male or female slave. Then the owner must pay the master the price for a new slave. That is 12 ounces of silver. And the bull must also be killed with stones.

MSG
“If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox must be stoned. The meat cannot be eaten but the owner of the ox is in the clear. But if the ox has a history of goring and the owner knew it and did nothing to guard against it, then if the ox kills a man or a woman, the ox is to be stoned and the owner given the death penalty. If a ransom is agreed upon instead of death, he must pay it in full as a redemption for his life. If a son or daughter is gored, the same judgment holds. If it is a slave or a handmaid the ox gores, thirty shekels of silver is to be paid to the owner and the ox stoned.

NCV
If the bull kills a male or female slave, the owner must pay the master the price for a new slave, or twelve ounces of silver, and the bull must also be stoned to death.

NLV
If the bull kills a male or female servant, the bull’s owner will give the servant’s owner thirty pieces of silver. And the bull will be killed with stones.

So, go ahead and do with it whatever you wish.


.

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3047
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3277 times
Been thanked: 2023 times

Re: The Immoral God

Post #82

Post by Difflugia »

theophile wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:15 amThat is our role as human beings as rulers of creation: to search out and act upon what is right.

Anyone who blindly follows any law or commandment in the bible is irresponsible to this fact, and is wholly responsible for their actions.
Amen!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21144
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 795 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: The Immoral God

Post #83

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:34 pm
So, go ahead and do with it whatever you wish.


.
Thanks.



DO ANY TRANSLATIONS SUPPORT THE CONCLUSION THAT EXODUS 21:32 REFERES TO A FATAL ATTACK?



Although the Hebrew word is not "to kill", it has been pointed out that a number of translators made the editorial choice to render the word as such, presumably to clarify the penalty discussed therein does indeed refer to a fatal attack.

Miles wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:34 pm


Exodus 21:32

CEV
If the bull kills a slave, you must pay the slave owner thirty pieces of silver for the loss of the slave, and the bull must be killed by stoning.

ERV
But if the bull kills a slave, the owner of the animal must pay the master 30 pieces of silver. And the bull must also be killed with stones. This law will be the same for men and women slaves.

EXB
If the ·bull [ox] ·kills [gores] a male or female slave, the owner must pay the master ·the price for a new slave, or twelve ounces [L thirty shekels] of silver, and the ·bull [ox] must also be stoned to death.

GNT
If the bull kills a male or female slave, its owner shall pay the owner of the slave thirty pieces of silver, and the bull shall be stoned to death.

ICB
But the bull might kill a male or female slave. Then the owner must pay the master the price for a new slave. That is 12 ounces of silver. And the bull must also be killed with stones.

NCV
If the bull kills a male or female slave, the owner must pay the master the price for a new slave, or twelve ounces of silver, and the bull must also be stoned to death.

NLV
If the bull kills a male or female servant, the bull’s owner will give the servant’s owner thirty pieces of silver. And the bull will be killed with stones.




All credit for the compilation of the above list goes to miles at debatingchristianity.com





RELATED POSTS
Why is there no mention of compensation for the slave in Exodus 21:32?
viewtopic.php?p=1020981#p1020981

How do various translations render Exodus 21:32? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1021025#p1021025
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: The Immoral God

Post #84

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:48 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:34 pm
So, go ahead and do with it whatever you wish.


.
Thanks.



DO ANY TRANSLATIONS SUPPORT THE CONCLUSION THAT EXODUS 21:32 REFERES TO A FATAL ATTACK?



Although the Hebrew word is not "to kill", it has been pointed out that a number of translators made the editorial choice to render the word as such, presumably to clarify the penalty discussed therein does indeed refer to a fatal attack.

Miles wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:34 pm


Exodus 21:32

CEV
If the bull kills a slave, you must pay the slave owner thirty pieces of silver for the loss of the slave, and the bull must be killed by stoning.

ERV
But if the bull kills a slave, the owner of the animal must pay the master 30 pieces of silver. And the bull must also be killed with stones. This law will be the same for men and women slaves.

EXB
If the ·bull [ox] ·kills [gores] a male or female slave, the owner must pay the master ·the price for a new slave, or twelve ounces [L thirty shekels] of silver, and the ·bull [ox] must also be stoned to death.

GNT
If the bull kills a male or female slave, its owner shall pay the owner of the slave thirty pieces of silver, and the bull shall be stoned to death.

ICB
But the bull might kill a male or female slave. Then the owner must pay the master the price for a new slave. That is 12 ounces of silver. And the bull must also be killed with stones.

NCV
If the bull kills a male or female slave, the owner must pay the master the price for a new slave, or twelve ounces of silver, and the bull must also be stoned to death.

NLV
If the bull kills a male or female servant, the bull’s owner will give the servant’s owner thirty pieces of silver. And the bull will be killed with stones.
All credit for the compilation of the above list goes to miles at debatingchristianity.com
Boy, it's about time someone recognized my contribution to Atheist/Christian harmony.

Image

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.



.

Post Reply