Apologetics You're Unlikely to Hear

[unknown soldier]

Can you explain why apologists are unlikely to make the following arguments?

The Argument from the Unique Traits of Evidence for Christianity
Evidence for Christianity is unlike the evidence for other religions in that we write lots of books to defend our faith, we testify to our experiences with God, we have eyewitnesses to verify our beliefs, and we share stories of miracles and answers to our prayers. Heck, some of us even die for our faith, and we couldn't die that way if our religion is untrue. What other religion can offer such evidence?

The Argument From the Character of Christians:
If you skeptics want to see why God is real, then just look at the character of us Christians. Only the indwelling of the Holy Ghost can explain our superhuman honesty, trustworthiness, and sensible behavior.

The Argument From Substantive Presentation (We will show you.):
If a jumble of words does not convince you, and you want to actually see God, then just lookee here--here he is!

The Argument from Knowledge:
I can tell you anything you want to know because I'm talking to God, and he will tell me.

The Argument From Testing Prayer:
God's power is granted through prayer, so go ahead and test prayer to see if what I'm saying is true.

The Argument From Read the Bible and See
We are so confident that the Holy Bible is the word of God, that we ask you to read it and come to your own conclusions regarding its divine authorship. We will accept any conclusion you come to and will treat you with respect even if you disagree with us.

The Argument from Miraculous Demonstration:
1 Corinthians 12 clearly promises us Christians the power to heal miraculously, and I will prove it to be true. Get those TV cameras ready, and assemble the skeptics to be eyewitnesses. Now, see this amputee over here? Just watch me go restore his legs in the name of Jesus!

[Clownboat]

Can you explain why apologists are unlikely to make the following arguments?

The Argument from the Unique Traits of Evidence for Christianity
Evidence for Christianity is unlike the evidence for other religions in that we write lots of books to defend our faith, we testify to our experiences with God, we have eyewitnesses to verify our beliefs, and we share stories of miracles and answers to our prayers. Heck, some of us even die for our faith, and we couldn't die that way if our religion is untrue. What other religion can offer such evidence?

The Argument From the Character of Christians:
If you skeptics want to see why God is real, then just look at the character of us Christians. Only the indwelling of the Holy Ghost can explain our superhuman honesty, trustworthiness, and sensible behavior.

The Argument From Substantive Presentation (We will show you.):
If a jumble of words does not convince you, and you want to actually see God, then just lookee here--here he is!

The Argument from Knowledge:
I can tell you anything you want to know because I'm talking to God, and he will tell me.

The Argument From Testing Prayer:
God's power is granted through prayer, so go ahead and test prayer to see if what I'm saying is true.

The Argument From Read the Bible and See
We are so confident that the Holy Bible is the word of God, that we ask you to read it and come to your own conclusions regarding its divine authorship. We will accept any conclusion you come to and will treat you with respect even if you disagree with us.

The Argument from Miraculous Demonstration:
1 Corinthians 12 clearly promises us Christians the power to heal miraculously, and I will prove it to be true. Get those TV cameras ready, and assemble the skeptics to be eyewitnesses. Now, see this amputee over here? Just watch me go restore his legs in the name of Jesus!

Like all other religions out there, these claims would show it to be fraudulent. Therefore, to make them would be religious suicide.

The gods must be able to work in mysterious ways, as that leaves room for some humans to believe in their existence.

[unknown soldier]

Can you explain why apologists are unlikely to make the following arguments?

Like all other religions out there, these claims would show it to be fraudulent. Therefore, to make them would be religious suicide.

You are correct, but I was looking for analyses for each apologetic. But yes, each of those apologetics goes beyond words offering some "meat" that Christians do not have. Apologists evidently don't want us to ask: "Where's the beef?"

The gods must be able to work in mysterious ways, as that leaves room for some humans to believe in their existence.

There's nothing like a great mystery especially in Christian apologetics. If the gods cannot be actually checked out, then as you say there's still a possibility they exist. To pull this trick off, the gods and their presumed miracles are pushed far away in space and time. So you're not likely to hear an apologist tell you that Jesus walked on the water near the Statue of Liberty in front of the TV cameras this morning. Jesus only seems to work his magic in times and places where only his most faithful followers can see that magic--and even then none of them bother to write about it until decades later.

[Willum]

[Replying to unknown soldier in post #1]

Unfortunately, these are also arguments Christians and Judaists, are unlikely to reply to.

I think the best you’ll get is God is not a myth because he says in the Bible that he won’t do these things.

So you know:
My imaginary friend George is also all powerful. But he says he only responds to prayers made in a certain formula.
Because of George, my ethics are impeccable.

Whoops, I shouldn’t have told you he was imaginary, huh?

[unknown soldier]

Unfortunately, these are also arguments Christians and Judaists, are unlikely to reply to.

So I've noticed. Why don't the apologists here wish to engage me on this topic?

I think the best you’ll get is God is not a myth because he says in the Bible that he won’t do these things.

No prophet of Clarymda would lie about her.

So you know:
My imaginary friend George is also all powerful. But he says he only responds to prayers made in a certain formula.
Because of George, my ethics are impeccable.

By George it must be true!

Whoops, I shouldn’t have told you he was imaginary, huh?

Just make up an evil spirit, and then blame that spirit.

[Overcomer]

unknown soldier wrote:

The Argument from the Unique Traits of Evidence for Christianity

Evidence for Christianity is unlike the evidence for other religions in that we write lots of books to defend our faith, we testify to our experiences with God, we have eyewitnesses to verify our beliefs, and we share stories of miracles and answers to our prayers. Heck, some of us even die for our faith, and we couldn't die that way if our religion is untrue. What other religion can offer such evidence?

As a matter of fact, Christians DO argue the unique traits of Christianity to differentiate it from other religions. Once one has argued for the existence of God using valid arguments -- cosmological, teleological, axiological, ontological, etc. -- it is then necessary to explain why the God of the Bible is the one, true God.

For example, Christianity is the ONLY religion which offers a relationship with God. It is the only religion where God reveals himself so that he can be known by humanity. It is the only religion in which God chose to come to earth to connect with us. It is the only religion to offer salvation as a gift, completely unearned by those who receive it.

All other religions are about trying to appease a far-off God who is unknowable, trying to earn their way into his presence by following rules and performing rites and rituals.

As for dying for one’s faith, some people suggest that the martyrdom of Christians is no different than that of Muslims, but it is. Followers of Christ allowed themselves to be killed rather than deny him as Lord and Saviour. If they knew that Jesus hadn’t risen from the dead, why would people who actually knew him – such as Peter and Jesus’ brother, James – die rather than admit it was all a lie? Would you let yourself be killed for something that you knew wasn’t true?

Muslims, however, choose to kill themselves and a whole lot of other people with them in a misguided attempt to enter Paradise because, in Islam, the only SURE way to get to that lofty place is to die in holy war against infidels (non-Muslims). That’s very different from Christian martyrdom.

See here for a summation of the arguments for the existence of God:

https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more ... stence.htm

Here is an article re: the uniqueness of Christianity:

http://www.evidencesforchristianity.org ... nique.html

unknown soldier wrote:

The Argument From the Character of Christians:

If you skeptics want to see why God is real, then just look at the character of us Christians. Only the indwelling of the Holy Ghost can explain our superhuman honesty, trustworthiness, and sensible behavior.

This bogus argument stems from an ignorance of what happens upon conversion. When people accept Christ, their spirits, dead in sin, come alive in him. They are filled with the Holy Spirit. At that point, they embark upon a life-long process of sanctification in which the Holy Spirit guides them in what I call cleaning up their acts. In other words, Christians don’t become sin-free at their conversion. They have to work through their flaws and foibles one by one in the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what Paul is referring to when he says that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). The goal is to become like Christ, but that goal will not be reached until the next life.

I always say that you won’t find any perfect Christians, just Christians who are in the process of being perfected. But we will make mistakes and say and do the wrong things along the way.

unknown soldier wrote:

The Argument From Substantive Presentation (We will show you.):

If a jumble of words does not convince you, and you want to actually see God, then just lookee here--here he is!

I’m not sure exactly what you mean here. If you’re asking if we can see God, then the answer is no. He’s Spirit. As such, he isn’t visible materially. Certainly people saw God in the person of Jesus Christ when he came to earth as God Incarnate.

God can also be seen in nature and in miracles and he can even be seen in Christians when they represent him rightly and truly because, while I noted above that none of us are without fault, there are moments when the Holy Spirit can shine through Christians. For example, through the centuries, Christians have gone out into the world taking education and health-care where needed, advocating for the rights of women, children, the poor, the disabled, the disenfranchised.

See Alvin Schmidt's How Christianity Changed the World. Here's a review of it:

https://regententrepreneur.org/rceresou ... the-world/

unknown soldier wrote:

The Argument from Knowledge:

I can tell you anything you want to know because I'm talking to God, and he will tell me.

There is a gift of knowledge. It is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as listed in 1 Cor. 12:8-10. But notice that these gifts are apportioned as the Holy Spirit sees fit. That means that we don’t all operate in all of those gifts all of the time.

There have been times when I have been given knowledge that I could not possibly know on my own. For example, one day when I was praying, the Holy Spirit prompted me to pray for an acquaintance with regard to a hurt she had sustained many years ago. He gave me the information and I prayed about it. I did not know this woman well, knew nothing about her background at all. A few days later, she called and asked me to pray about this person who had hurt her years ago, etc, etc., etc. and I told her I already had and when I shared the details she was amazed.

But these gifts are not for any of us to turn on at any given time. You can say to me, “You must know what I’m thinking if God is real and he can tell you all kinds of things” and if I don’t, that isn’t proof that God doesn’t exist. It’s only proof that you don’t understand how the gifts of the Spirit operate.

unknown soldier wrote:

The Argument From Testing Prayer:

God's power is granted through prayer, so go ahead and test prayer to see if what I'm saying is true.

I have heard atheists say, “I prayed for God to reveal myself and he didn’t show up.” Well, why would he? When the prayer is lifted without sincere desire to know him, when it’s just a dishonest smart-aleck saying empty words, there is no onus on God to reveal himself. God doesn't respond to mockery.

And besides, people who hate the very idea of God will always find an excuse NOT to believe. Take the Pharisees for example. They saw Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44). Did that make them believers? Not at all. All it did was harden their hearts further. They decided they had better hurry up and get rid of Jesus soon because people were following his lead instead of theirs.

Die-hard atheists will always find an excuse to explain away anything that might be attributed to God. So when one of them says he prayed and nothing happened, it's just a joke.

unknown soldier wrote:

The Argument From Read the Bible and See

We are so confident that the Holy Bible is the word of God, that we ask you to read it and come to your own conclusions regarding its divine authorship. We will accept any conclusion you come to and will treat you with respect even if you disagree with us.

Actually, Mormons make this kind of argument, but Christians don’t because it’s just foolish. Mormons want you to get that warm and fuzzy feeling from the Book of Mormon. The reality is this: There are some people who will never come to Christ and they can read the Bible a thousand times and nothing happens. There are others who can read it once and it comes alive to them and it changes their lives. It depends on the individual. I have heard it explained like this:

The sun beats down on clay and it beats down on a candle. The clay bakes and becomes harder. The candle softens and melts. Atheists are clay. Believers are candles.

unknown soldier wrote:

The Argument from Miraculous Demonstration:

1 Corinthians 12 clearly promises us Christians the power to heal miraculously, and I will prove it to be true. Get those TV cameras ready, and assemble the skeptics to be eyewitnesses. Now, see this amputee over here? Just watch me go restore his legs in the name of Jesus!

You have written "us Christians" in that statement. Are you a born-again, Spirit-filled believer in a relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ by the infilling of the Spirit? I ask that because you speak of God and the Bible with such contempt.

As for miracles, there have been all kinds of them with valid evidence to back them up. Many are medical. I have shared my own several times here as well as those of friends who saw tumours disappear with before and after tests as well as doctors’ testimonies to substantiate them.

Craig Keener wrote a two-tome work on miracles in which he went around the world documenting miracles of all kinds. You can hear him talk about it here:





And he has written an article about why sometimes there are no healings here:

https://craigkeener.com/when-miracles-dont-happen/

He rightly notes that, when Jesus came, he initiated the Kingdom of God (a world in which everything is done according to God's will meaning that there is no sin, no sickness), but that the Kingdom will not be fully implemented until his second coming. In the meantime, we get the benefits of that Kingdom partially. However, sin and sickness still exist. That means we will see some healings and some sin habits disappear in this lifetime, but not all of them.

To be truthful, all of the "arguments" you have presented are strawman arguments. You make up your own argument and then ridicule it. But strawman arguments are fallacious and I could have dismissed them summarily by stating that. However, I thought it might be beneficial to point out some of the more egregious mistakes made in them.

[unknown soldier]

As a matter of fact, Christians DO argue the unique traits of Christianity to differentiate it from other religions.

I'm well aware that Christianity is different, but all religions are different. That's what's the same about all of them; they're all different.

Once one has argued for the existence of God using valid arguments -- cosmological, teleological, axiological, ontological, etc. -- it is then necessary to explain why the God of the Bible is the one, true God.

I can do all that for my Goddess, Clarymda, but that's another topic.

For example, Christianity is the ONLY religion which offers a relationship with God. It is the only religion where God reveals himself so that he can be known by humanity. It is the only religion in which God chose to come to earth to connect with us.

Actually, the Greeks said much the same for Zeus.

It is the only religion to offer salvation as a gift, completely unearned by those who receive it.

I think it's better to expect people to earn blessings from a Goddess. That way there would be less hypocrisy.

All other religions are about trying to appease a far-off God who is unknowable...

So you know all about God, I see. And how near is he? On the front porch?

...trying to earn their way into his presence by following rules and performing rites and rituals.

What rules, rites, and rituals do you disregard? The Ten Commandments, The Sermon on the Mount, Communion?

As for dying for one’s faith, some people suggest that the martyrdom of Christians is no different than that of Muslims, but it is. Followers of Christ allowed themselves to be killed rather than deny him as Lord and Saviour. If they knew that Jesus hadn’t risen from the dead, why would people who actually knew him – such as Peter and Jesus’ brother, James – die rather than admit it was all a lie? Would you let yourself be killed for something that you knew wasn’t true?

Since I'm a rational person, I won't let myself get killed for any reason if I can avoid it. So if those Christians got themselves into life-threatening situations knowing it wasn't necessary to do so, then they were not rational. I'm not quick to believe irrational people.

Besides, most of those martyr stories are probably myths. The early church made up those stories to impress converts.

Finally, if your God is real, then it seems reasonable to me that he would preserve the lives of his followers--not let them die horrible deaths. So if they are martyred, I think that's a reason to doubt Christian claims.

This bogus argument stems from an ignorance of what happens upon conversion. When people accept Christ, their spirits, dead in sin, come alive in him. They are filled with the Holy Spirit. At that point, they embark upon a life-long process of sanctification in which the Holy Spirit guides them in what I call cleaning up their acts. In other words, Christians don’t become sin-free at their conversion. They have to work through their flaws and foibles one by one in the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what Paul is referring to when he says that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). The goal is to become like Christ, but that goal will not be reached until the next life.

As a Christian I neither experienced nor saw any of this in Christians. The Christians I knew were often as bad or worse than non Christians. Many of them seemed to experience paranoia from their beliefs, and I saw a lot of hatred for unbelievers.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean here. If you’re asking if we can see God, then the answer is no. He’s Spirit. As such, he isn’t visible materially. Certainly people saw God in the person of Jesus Christ when he came to earth as God Incarnate.

Have you seen Jesus? Have you any substance at all to your claims, or do you have only words to offer?

You only have words.

...through the centuries, Christians have gone out into the world taking education and health-care where needed, advocating for the rights of women, children, the poor, the disabled, the disenfranchised.

Now that's a whopper! I happen to have advocated for the rights of the disabled, and some of the strongest opposition I ran into was from Christians.

There have been times when I have been given knowledge that I could not possibly know on my own. For example, one day when I was praying, the Holy Spirit prompted me to pray for an acquaintance with regard to a hurt she had sustained many years ago. He gave me the information and I prayed about it. I did not know this woman well, knew nothing about her background at all. A few days later, she called and asked me to pray about this person who had hurt her years ago, etc, etc., etc. and I told her I already had and when I shared the details she was amazed.

Assuming this story is true (a very generous assumption), what you're saying can be easily explained as mere coincidence. If she had never contacted you, then your failed prayer would have been long forgotten or simply disregarded.

Christians judge prayer that way: hits are trumpeted from the housetops, and misses are ignored or explained away.

But these gifts are not for any of us to turn on at any given time. You can say to me, “You must know what I’m thinking if God is real and he can tell you all kinds of things” and if I don’t, that isn’t proof that God doesn’t exist. It’s only proof that you don’t understand how the gifts of the Spirit operate.

Did the Holy Ghost inspire you to post this personal attack that has no relevance to the topic we're discussing?

I have heard atheists say, “I prayed for God to reveal myself and he didn’t show up.” Well, why would he? When the prayer is lifted without sincere desire to know him, when it’s just a dishonest smart-aleck saying empty words...

You are assuming that atheists who have experienced failed prayers were insincere when praying. Although sometimes people do pray "mock-prayers," many current atheists experienced failed prayers when they were yet believing Christians. I am one of those former Christians, current atheists. I prayed fervently and prayed often when I was a Christian, but it got to the point that I simply could not ignore what was very obvious; prayer is no more effective than not praying at all.

...there is no onus on God to reveal himself. God doesn't respond to mockery.

In that case God, if he's real, will only be mocked more. The more he refuses to act on prayers--sincere or insincere prayers--the more people will doubt and see prayer as a joke. It seems far more reasonable to me to conclude that there simply is no God to answer prayers, and that's why prayer doesn't work.

And besides, people who hate the very idea of God will always find an excuse NOT to believe. Take the Pharisees for example.

The Pharisees were religious leaders, so I don't think they hated the idea of God, and neither were they atheists. They were very devout Jews who are revered by Jews to this day.

They saw Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44). Did that make them believers? Not at all. All it did was harden their hearts further. They decided they had better hurry up and get rid of Jesus soon because people were following his lead instead of theirs.

What you're claiming here probably isn't historical. I think the Pharisees would have jumped at somebody like Jesus hoping he was the Messiah. They probably would have begged him to be their leader.

Die-hard atheists will always find an excuse to explain away anything that might be attributed to God.

It's rough, isn't it, OC? You just can't convince those doubting atheists. I know how upsetting it can be to be a Christian trying to convince tough skeptics because I was such a Christian.

Actually, Mormons make this kind of argument, but Christians don’t because it’s just foolish.

Based on my own experiences with Christians, they won't honestly promise that they will respect those who read the Bible because they know full well that the Bible can fail miserably to convince people that its claims are true. Many Christians wish to leave open the door to mock any person who reads the Bible and yet disagrees that it's anything more than a work of fiction.

The sun beats down on clay and it beats down on a candle. The clay bakes and becomes harder. The candle softens and melts. Atheists are clay. Believers are candles.

That's a good analogy. Atheists remain intact under the heat of scrutiny while Christians tend to melt away.

Are you a born-again, Spirit-filled believer in a relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ by the infilling of the Spirit?

Uh--well--yes! Just read my posts to see that I am a Christian.

As for miracles, there have been all kinds of them with valid evidence to back them up. Many are medical. I have shared my own several times here as well as those of friends who saw tumours disappear with before and after tests as well as doctors’ testimonies to substantiate them.

Am I somehow obligated to believe you? I don't doubt that Christians have truckloads of miracle stories. I'm still waiting for one verified miracle.

However, sin and sickness still exist. That means we will see some healings and some sin habits disappear in this lifetime, but not all of them.

Can God at least do better than dumb luck?

To be truthful, all of the "arguments" you have presented are strawman arguments. You make up your own argument and then ridicule it. But strawman arguments are fallacious and I could have dismissed them summarily by stating that.

I'm afraid none of my apologetics are straw-man arguments. You evidently missed my saying that it is unlikely that any Christian apologist would make such arguments.

However, I thought it might be beneficial to point out some of the more egregious mistakes made in them.

Would it help if you asked the Holy Ghost to explain to you what a straw-man argument is? You're getting it wrong. Maybe you're still undergoing that "life-long process of sanctification in which the Holy Spirit guides (you) in what (you) call cleaning up their acts."

But heck, I understand what a straw-man argument is, and I figured it out without any Ghost--Holy or otherwise.

Finally, I do give you credit for trying. Unlike most Christians here, you've got the noo-chas to tackle tough issues.

[DavidLeon]

Like all other religions out there, these claims would show it to be fraudulent. Therefore, to make them would be religious suicide.

The gods must be able to work in mysterious ways, as that leaves room for some humans to believe in their existence.

[unknown soldier]

Craig Keener wrote a two-tome work on miracles in which he went around the world documenting miracles of all kinds. You can hear him talk about it here:





And he has written an article about why sometimes there are no healings here:

https://craigkeener.com/when-miracles-dont-happen/

I watched both videos, and I see that Craig Keener is just another purveyor of the Christian faith healing scam. I was personally victimized by faith-healing con artists, and I lost a lot of money and ended up feeling like a fool. And of course, my "healing" never came. Faith healing is quackery and is an attack on disabled people. It is a threat to public health, and it should be outlawed.

[unknown soldier]

Like all other religions out there, these claims would show it to be fraudulent. Therefore, to make them would be religious suicide.

The gods must be able to work in mysterious ways, as that leaves room for some humans to believe in their existence.

Actually, I agree with much of what this video is saying. Many atheists are tough skeptics who are not convinced by the evidence and arguments offered for Christianity by apologists. It should then come as no surprise that many Christians become frustrated and even angry when they are unable to convert unbelievers. I should point out that mocking skeptics is unlikely to convert them. If Christian apologists ridicule atheists, then many atheists will see that mockery as a cheap substitute for good evidence for Christianity and reasons to believe Christian claims.

So keep on mocking us. You might as well take that route rather than keep making arguments we atheists don't buy.