Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

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Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #1

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Consider Anne. Anne has been a Christian for a long time, and she's very sure that she has the one true God. She's also confident that her ability to share her faith should convince any person who is honestly seeking to know of God. She believes that Jesus literally speaks to her, and she often tells people what he has told her. If she encounters a person who rejects her testimony, she sees that person as a hard-hearted unbeliever who will not accept her truth because he is a sinner in rebellion against God.

One day Anne encounters Jack. Jack is almost a mirror image of Anne. Like Anne, Jack has been a person of faith a very long time. He's sure that God is true, and he testifies that God speaks to him too. He shares these revelations with others including Anne.

A problem quickly becomes apparent to Anne. Jack's God is much different in some ways than Christ. Jack's God is not even a God but a Goddess. Anne tries to convince Jack that she is right, but everything she says and does is met with a response from Jack that is basically the same as what she says and does but with his God.

Anne is thinking these two thoughts:

1. What I say and do demonstrates that my God should be accepted as the true God.
2. Jack is saying and doing about his Goddess what I say and do, yet I think his Goddess is false.

These two thoughts are in conflict. Anne realizes that if what she says and does demonstrates a true God, then what she says and does cannot demonstrate false God too. These conflicting thoughts cause Anne discomfort. She is experiencing what is known as cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance happens when a person has two conflicting thoughts, both of which are apparently true.

How do Christians typically deal with cognitive dissonance? In Anne's case she may simply stop talking to Jack about God.

Other situations that may cause Christians to experience cognitive dissonance:

1. A tragedy strikes demonstrating that there is no protection from God.
2. A prayer fails to solve a very dire problem.
3. Bible study reveals a contradiction, an absurdity, or an evil act that is sanctified.
4. A clever atheist is encountered who is adept at falsifying Christian beliefs.

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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #41

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Clownboat wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm
Please, tell us where you found "His Son". Was it inside your head?
Perhaps my words were confusing,

They are more than just confusing Tam, they are bordering on being deceitful. Here is why?

Tam: "He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice."

It is deceitful to lead people to believe you hear the voice of a god when in reality all you are doing is reading a book.
It is not me who is being deceitful here, Clownboat.

A - the above is just one way that I explained having heard my Lord, and I clearly state that in my post.

B - Have you never read along while someone else reads to you? So that you hear their voice?


Consider how this reads: "God led me to His Son."
The response: "Please, tell us where you found "His Son"
Your reply: "I'm not sure why you're asking about 'where' did I find "His Son".

I'm left confused as to why you would use words in such a seemingly deceitful way.
Why claim to hear the voice of a god when you really mean, you read a book?
See above.
Consider a Muslim that claims to speak to Allah, the One True God.
What if you found out that what they really mean by this is that they read the Quran?
A - I think you may have confused speaking TO someone... with someone speaking TO you.

B - In my experience, what you have written is often (not always) what people mean when they say that God told them something (they mean 'through what they have read in the bible' or other 'holy' book).

But that is not what I said, and it is certainly not all that I said.
You would know them by their fruits, wouldn't you?
Indeed. But again, I am not the one being deceitful here.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #42

Post by unknown soldier »

tam wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:05 am Peace to you...
There can be no peace when it is necessary to rise up and overcome an oppressor.
I actually did something similar when I started actively seeking truth (mainly, what was true about God). I wanted to know what was written in the bible, myself, so that I would not be fooled by men.
If you're concerned about being fooled by men, then you should beware the men who wrote the Bible. Why exempt those men from the men you scrutinize?
It is not the bible that God led me to, when I asked for truth, when I asked God to lead me where He wanted me to be. God led me to His Son (who is His Truth).
I don't believe any God led you to his son. You got the whole idea from the Bible.
...I was never under the impression that it was without any error, so something like that would not have fazed me or affected my faith. I just wanted to know what was written, for myself.
Why bother reading the Bible if you already had God and his son? And what errors did you find in the Bible?
Suffice it to say that I can understand what can be understood in the Bible by reading it for myself.
I don't mean any offense, but I do not get that impression.
That's good thinking, Tam! Never blindly accept the claims of anybody who says they understand the Bible especially if you think they are wrong. I don't want you to blindly accept what I say about the Bible, and you are welcome to quiz me anytime.
Just in our conversations, you seem to be unaware of (or lack understanding of) some thing that are written.
I'm sure there's plenty in the Bible I'm not aware of. It's a huge tome and comes in many different versions. And like I've explained, some parts are impossible to understand because they are hopelessly vague or ambiguous.
Regardless, I can GUARANTEE that some of the parts you believe can be understood by reading it for oneself - have different interpretations by different people who read and study the bible.
That's very true. People have differed and even fought for millennia over their conflicting interpretations of the Bible. All of these "Christian soldiers" were right, of course.
No, what it seems to me is that you have a blind spot where Christ is concerned, because you hide behind your 'goddess' each time I bring up something we should be doing in Christ.
No, what it seems to me is that you have a blind spot where Clarymda is concerned, because you hide behind your 'God' each time I bring up something we should be doing in Clarymda.

See that Tam? I matched you word-for-word. Your words are no truer than mine.
I mean, you may not believe in Christ, but you should know that He is the One who is the Teacher, according to His words as recorded, yes?
I'm aware that the New Testament describes Christ as a man who "taught," but I see him as a propagandist (assuming he existed). He is no more a teacher than Jim Jones was a teacher.
So I see no reason why you could not have responded to my question with 'I do recall reading that Christ opened the eyes of the apostles...' or 'I do not recall reading that'.
If you think Christ speaks to you today, then how can I be sure if you aren't asking if I can actually remember what Christ did?
But there is no need for you to make up an explanation if there is no conflict to begin with.
Maybe "conflict" is a strong word, but if Christ doomed the world by "bringing a sword," then it's obviously a good idea to think about why he at times recommended peace. Such a paradox warrants an explanation, in my opinion.
Plus, your explanation seems to overlook the fact that Christ said that we are to love even our enemies.
Again, we should try to explain what is meant by "love" and why such passages appear in the gospel. Love is a tricky word that means different things to different people and can be used to harm people. It is very naive to assume that Christ was a sweet guy just because he spoke of love. Evil people can and often do use that word to manipulate others. Charles Manson, for example, recruited his "family" by making them feel loved and accepted.
Even Christ asked forgiveness for those who wronged Him, bore false witness about Him, beat Him and handed Him over to be executed.
Actually, Christ insulted and slandered his enemies and even acted violently toward them (if we can trust what is written about him).
We are to do as Christ did, follow His example and His commands. If indeed we are HIS disciples.
No thanks. I'm not going to insult people in public.
Man is the one who brings harm to his fellow man. Christ did not do or teach that.
Christ told people about a wrathful and violent God who punished all those who displeased him. It is then surprising that people who believe he was a prophet have not done much more harm than they have done. If there were no gospel story, then there never would have been an inquisition or the crusades.
I have not expected anyone to do anything. I believe I have explained this already.
OK, then you don't expect anybody to believe you.
I do not have 'voices in my head'. I said that Christ (one voice) speaks; and that His sheep hear His voice.
Have you told your doctor that Christ is speaking to you? Seriously, your belief that he is might be masking a serious problem that needs medical attention.
God is Almighty.
Then he doesn't need to wait to help people.

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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #43

Post by unknown soldier »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:29 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:53 am
tam wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:05 am It is not the bible that God led me to, when I asked for truth, when I asked God to lead me where He wanted me to be. God led me to His Son (who is His Truth).
Please, tell us where you found "His Son". Was it inside your head?
Like all other religions on this planet, the god answers are found in human imaginings and religious promotional material.
Applying Occam's razor, we need only make one assumption regarding claims of theistic encounters; they are, as you say, solely the result of "human imaginings and religious promotional material." Anybody who can communicate can make such claims, and many do albeit with different Gods or Goddesses. This one assumption is sufficient to explain supposed revelations. There is then no reason to make another assumption that any of those deities are real.
Therefore, I must assume that Tam has imagined that she has a relationship with a Christ figure as she has not shown herself to be anything but a typical human with typical human abilities.
I can conclude that you are right about Tam, but she seems unwilling to understand that simple fact. Oddly enough, though, she is quick to see anybody who preaches a deity not her own as a phony. Their words, to her, are devoid of truth, yet they are the same words she uses.
Some will imagine communing with a god and others look to teachers, pastors, preachers and shamans to inform them about the said concept.
Which teachers, pastors, preachers and shamans win out over the teachers, pastors, preachers and shamans who preach a different God or pantheon of gods? Many factors will determine the "winners," but facts and logic no doubt are not the main reasons. Supposed prophets need to have charisma and be able to tell people what they want to believe.

Tam may be one such prophet. As far as I know no Christian here has told her she is merely deluded.
Some humans need god concepts to supply them with answers to the unknown, this I understand and acknowledge.
Many people want answers that comfort them about the unknown or what they think is unknown. That's where religion comes in. They want to be told, for example, that death is not the end but is actually a portal to an eternal paradise where they can be reunited with loved ones who have died.

Did you notice that no religion promises people that they must live eternally with their enemies?
Never has one been shown to be real or more special than the next. Some humans will pretend otherwise though and will miss the special pleading going on.
And now we come full circle. In the OP, Anne's cognitive dissonance is being caused by her realization that all her reasons to believe in her God can just as easily be used to argue for the existence of a Goddess she does not believe in. In other words, she understands she is special pleading.

Tam is a real-life Anne except apparently without the cognitive dissonance.

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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #44

Post by DavidLeon »

unknown soldier wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm
Clownboat wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:29 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:53 am
tam wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:05 am It is not the bible that God led me to, when I asked for truth, when I asked God to lead me where He wanted me to be. God led me to His Son (who is His Truth).
Please, tell us where you found "His Son". Was it inside your head?
Like all other religions on this planet, the god answers are found in human imaginings and religious promotional material.
Applying Occam's razor, we need only make one assumption regarding claims of theistic encounters; they are, as you say, solely the result of "human imaginings and religious promotional material." Anybody who can communicate can make such claims, and many do albeit with different Gods or Goddesses. This one assumption is sufficient to explain supposed revelations. There is then no reason to make another assumption that any of those deities are real.
Therefore, I must assume that Tam has imagined that she has a relationship with a Christ figure as she has not shown herself to be anything but a typical human with typical human abilities.
I can conclude that you are right about Tam, but she seems unwilling to understand that simple fact.
Maybe that's because, as you yourself said, it was an assumption. Not a fact.
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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #45

Post by tam »

May the reader have peace,

I actually did something similar when I started actively seeking truth (mainly, what was true about God). I wanted to know what was written in the bible, myself, so that I would not be fooled by men.
If you're concerned about being fooled by men, then you should beware the men who wrote the Bible. Why exempt those men from the men you scrutinize?
1 - If a person wants to know what is written in a book, then they should read the book for themselves, rather than trust what others say about it, yes?

2 - I have always taken what is written with a grain of salt, holding all of it up against the Light and Truth (my Lord Jaheshua).

It is not the bible that God led me to, when I asked for truth, when I asked God to lead me where He wanted me to be. God led me to His Son (who is His Truth).
I don't believe any God led you to his son. You got the whole idea from the Bible.
You are free to believe as you choose, unknown soldier.
...I was never under the impression that it was without any error, so something like that would not have fazed me or affected my faith. I just wanted to know what was written, for myself.
Why bother reading the Bible if you already had God and his son?
As stated, I was not sure what was true about God. Part of me seeking truth included the decision to read and see what was written in the bible about God.

No, what it seems to me is that you have a blind spot where Christ is concerned, because you hide behind your 'goddess' each time I bring up something we should be doing in Christ.
No, what it seems to me is that you have a blind spot where Clarymda is concerned, because you hide behind your 'God' each time I bring up something we should be doing in Clarymda.

See that Tam? I matched you word-for-word. Your words are no truer than mine.
Well that's not true, now is it?

I've never done what you are doing. I could not care less about your pretend 'goddess'.
I mean, you may not believe in Christ, but you should know that He is the One who is the Teacher, according to His words as recorded, yes?
I'm aware that the New Testament describes Christ as a man who "taught,"
Not just as a man who 'taught' but as the Teacher.
So I see no reason why you could not have responded to my question with 'I do recall reading that Christ opened the eyes of the apostles...' or 'I do not recall reading that'.
If you think Christ speaks to you today, then how can I be sure if you aren't asking if I can actually remember what Christ did?
This is a deflection. I think I will chalk this up to being one of those passages that you were unaware of.
But there is no need for you to make up an explanation if there is no conflict to begin with.
Maybe "conflict" is a strong word, but if Christ doomed the world by "bringing a sword,"
Thank you for the admission.

Might I ask a few questions?

What do you mean by 'doomed'?

What exactly do you think the sword is?

In what is written, what did Christ say that 'sword' would do?
then it's obviously a good idea to think about why he at times recommended peace. Such a paradox warrants an explanation, in my opinion.
Sure it is a good idea to think about that, even ask about it.

His words (even just as written) provide that explanation.
Plus, your explanation seems to overlook the fact that Christ said that we are to love even our enemies.
Again, we should try to explain what is meant by "love" and why such passages appear in the gospel. Love is a tricky word that means different things to different people and can be used to harm people.
Indeed. But this is why there was an elaboration on that love in action:

But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Even Christ asked forgiveness for those who wronged Him, bore false witness about Him, beat Him and handed Him over to be executed.


I could elaborate even further, because of course He also tells us to forgive, not to judge, to be merciful, to turn the other cheek if someone strikes us; He also rebuked His disciples when they asked if they should 'call down fire from heaven to destroy' some Samaritans who refused to welcome Him. He also rebuked Peter for using his (physical) sword and striking at those who came to arrest Him.

Even Christ asked forgiveness for those who wronged Him, bore false witness about Him, beat Him and handed Him over to be executed.
Actually, Christ insulted and slandered his enemies and even acted violently toward them (if we can trust what is written about him).
You say 'actually' as if my words were somehow untrue. But that is not the case.

As for your words:

Christ simply spoke the truth (the sword that comes out of His mouth), and if some were insulted by the truth, then whose problem is that? Aren't these the same men who were downtrodding the poor, calling those downtrodden people sinners and judging them for it, looking down upon them, telling them that they were steeped in sin at birth, and condemning the innocent? Are you willing to defend such men just so you can try and disparage Christ? Isn't that the same as defending religious leaders today who are downtrodding and oppressing people, including the poor, misleading them, stealing from them, judging them, threatening them, abusing them (spiritually, physically, mentally, sexually)?

We are to do as Christ did, follow His example and His commands. If indeed we are HIS disciples.
No thanks. I'm not going to insult people in public.
Aren't you insulting Him?

Man is the one who brings harm to his fellow man. Christ did not do or teach that.
Christ told people about a wrathful and violent God who punished all those who displeased him. It is then surprising that people who believe he was a prophet have not done much more harm than they have done. If there were no gospel story, then there never would have been an inquisition or the crusades.
No, this is incorrect.

If those people had actually been listening to Christ, then they could not have committed such atrocities as the Inquisition, or the Crusades, or the more recent abuses and attempted genocides of native americans and their children (in religiously run residency schools and orphanages, etc).

The problem is that they were NOT listening to Christ; they were not FROM Christ, they did not know Christ (or His Father).


But the people there refused to welcome Him, because He was heading for Jerusalem. 54When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?” 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, You know not what manner of spirit you are of.




Peace again to all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #46

Post by brunumb »

tam wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 pm I have always taken what is written with a grain of salt, holding all of it up against the Light and Truth (my Lord Jaheshua).
In order to do that you must establish what exactly is the 'Light and Truth' and why. How exactly did you do that other than begin with an assumption? The only source you have for reference is the Bible. If you start with the Bible then everything that follows is based on the assumption that it is not merely man made religious propaganda. So, it would appear that you are holding up what is written against your own preconceived ideas of what you think it means. There is a lot of confirmation bias and circular reasoning involved in reaching your position as far as I can see. That doesn't include whatever beliefs were inculcated through religious indoctrination via so-called Teachers.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #47

Post by unknown soldier »

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #44]

It was Clownboat who made the assumption!

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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #48

Post by DavidLeon »

unknown soldier wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:26 pm [Replying to DavidLeon in post #44]

It was Clownboat who made the assumption!
unknown soldier wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pmApplying Occam's razor, we need only make one assumption regarding claims of theistic encounters; they are, as you say, solely the result of "human imaginings and religious promotional material." Anybody who can communicate can make such claims, and many do albeit with different Gods or Goddesses. This one assumption is sufficient to explain supposed revelations. There is then no reason to make another assumption that any of those deities are real.

I can conclude that you are right about Tam, but she seems unwilling to understand that simple fact.
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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #49

Post by unknown soldier »

tam wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 pmIf a person wants to know what is written in a book, then they should read the book for themselves, rather than trust what others say about it, yes?
Yes, of course it's wise to actually read a book to know what it says. What others say about its contents may or may not be helpful. In the case of the Bible, I will often check what others say about its contents to see if they are right or wrong. In your case, for example, I've found by checking the Bible and thinking about what the Bible says, that you are sometimes right and sometimes wrong about it.
I have always taken what is written with a grain of salt, holding all of it up against the Light and Truth (my Lord Jaheshua).
Sorry, but I'm no more likely to believe what you say Christ says to you than you are to believe what I say Clarymda says to me.
You are free to believe as you choose, unknown soldier.
I really can't choose to believe or disbelieve that God led you to his son. My brain just won't accept it I suppose the same way I cannot believe that Julius Caesar speaks to you.
As stated, I was not sure what was true about God. Part of me seeking truth included the decision to read and see what was written in the bible about God.
If God led you to his son, then why can't he just tell you what's in the Bible?
See that Tam? I matched you word-for-word. Your words are no truer than mine.
Well that's not true, now is it?
It's very true except that I substituted "Clarymda" for "Christ."
I've never done what you are doing. I could not care less about your pretend 'goddess'.
I've never done what you are doing. I could not care less about your pretend 'Christ'. Do you expect me to care about the disembodied voice you are hearing?
What do you mean by 'doomed'?
Christ threatened eternal hell for all those who did not believe him.
What exactly do you think the sword is?
Well, obviously the "sword" is not peace. The sword is a metaphor for discord and even violence within one's own family. It is Christ's way of saying that he will lead many people to their deaths which, by the way, is one prediction he actually got right.
Indeed. But this is why there was an elaboration on that love in action:

But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Did Christ love the Pharisees? Did he do good to them? Did he bless them and pray for them? And in Revelation Christ "wraps it all up." Where in Revelation did Christ love his enemies? Quote the passages in Revelation where Christ blesses his enemies.
Even Christ asked forgiveness for those who wronged Him, bore false witness about Him, beat Him and handed Him over to be executed.
Did any of them make it to heaven, or were they condemned to hell?
I could elaborate even further, because of course He also tells us to forgive, not to judge, to be merciful, to turn the other cheek if someone strikes us; He also rebuked His disciples when they asked if they should 'call down fire from heaven to destroy' some Samaritans who refused to welcome Him. He also rebuked Peter for using his (physical) sword and striking at those who came to arrest Him.
Yes, at times Christ said some apparently nice things--things that any decent person already understands. But you ignore or deny all the terrible things he is said to have said and done.
You say 'actually' as if my words were somehow untrue.
I know that a lot of what you say isn't true, and those voices you're hearing won't change my mind.
Aren't these the same men who were downtrodding the poor, calling those downtrodden people sinners and judging them for it, looking down upon them, telling them that they were steeped in sin at birth, and condemning the innocent? Are you willing to defend such men just so you can try and disparage Christ? Isn't that the same as defending religious leaders today who are downtrodding and oppressing people, including the poor, misleading them, stealing from them, judging them, threatening them, abusing them (spiritually, physically, mentally, sexually)?
It's not my goal to "disparage" Christ. I'm just posting what the gospel says about him and citing his legacy. And I assume you are referring to the Jewish leaders who supposedly did what the gospel accuses them of. It is very naive to believe what people's enemies say about them. While I'm sure the Jewish priests had their bad side (they represented a religion, after all), what's said about them in the gospel is very likely antiJewish propaganda. They no doubt were no worse than Christ who could be very hypocritical himself.
Aren't you insulting Him?
No.
If those people had actually been listening to Christ, then they could not have committed such atrocities as the Inquisition, or the Crusades, or the more recent abuses and attempted genocides of native americans and their children (in religiously run residency schools and orphanages, etc).
Did that voice tell you this? If so, then that voice is wrong. When the inquisition burned people at the stake, they referred to it a an "auto-da-fé" which translated means an act of faith in Christ. It consisted of executing an alleged heretic often by burning, the most cruel and evil thing that you can do to another person. The victims of this "act of faith in Christ" were often women accused of consorting with the Devil. The inquisition reasoned that if a person would burn in hell being condemned by God, then the burning should be initiated here on earth. All of these ideas the inquisition got from Christ in the gospel story. Christ reputedly "taught" of a violent and vengeful God who punishes sinners who were led by Satan. These ideas were the very basis for the inquisition.
The problem is that they were NOT listening to Christ; they were not FROM Christ, they did not know Christ (or His Father).
Martin Luther "listened to Christ" as he knew the gospel and the entire Bible very well. As a result of his knowing Christ, In The Jews and Their Lies Luther said:
He (Christ) did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today.
Here we have proof that Christ's words inspired centuries of anti-Jewish hatred that culminated in Hitler's "final solution." If you deny it, then you deny the facts.

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Re: Christian Faith & Cognitive Dissonance

Post #50

Post by Clownboat »

Clownboat wrote:It is deceitful to lead people to believe you hear the voice of a god when in reality all you are doing is reading a book.
It is not me who is being deceitful here, Clownboat.

A - the above is just one way that I explained having heard my Lord, and I clearly state that in my post.

B - Have you never read along while someone else reads to you? So that you hear their voice?
To continue to try to paint the picture of hearing the voice of a god when reading a book is to be deceitful. You are trying to trick people it seems into thinking something is taking place that is not taking place. To the bold specificaly, you are now trying to paint a scenario where a god is reading to you and you are reading along with him. This is not taking place though, therefore to make it seem like it is, is to be deceitful IMO.
See above.

Yes, above you are seeming to be deceitful in attempting to trick me into thinking a god is reading to you and you are hearing its voice. You are reading Tam, not a god, therefore you are not hearing the voice of a god.
Consider a Muslim that claims to speak to Allah, the One True God.
What if you found out that what they really mean by this is that they read the Quran?
A - I think you may have confused speaking TO someone... with someone speaking TO you.
What does this statement have to with the scenario where a Muslim is claiming to speak with Allah, the One True God, but they actually meant that they are reading the Quran and pretending to hear the voice of their god concept? Would you not see that as them being deceitful? That is the question being asked of you, because you 'seem' to be painting a picture that does not reflect what is actually taking place.
You would know them by their fruits, wouldn't you?
Indeed. But again, I am not the one being deceitful here.
Let us test this claim Tam. Do you hear the voice of your God, or do you read a book and pretend that you are hearing a voice?
Please be as honest as you can.

hear
Learn to pronounce
verb
perceive with the ear the sound made by (someone or something).
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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