I recently had a "conversation" with a man who attacked me for making a simple, general statement of "I so don't care" on my own personal social media feed. I forget what exactly he said initially, but it was something akin to knowing me personally (I had no idea who this guy was and never spoke with him in my life), then started calling me names like 'jerk', 'pathetic', and 'sad' after pontificating how he's a Christian, how he 'loves the world and all the people in it' and replied to my initial statement 'to make the world a better place'. He then started preaching how we will all have to bow to God at judgement blah blah blah. Later, he even insulted others that took up my position by calling them 'lovers of {me}' and that one woman 'must be attracted to' me (which, of course, they all are but that's another story ), and he ended everything with a 'God bless' statement.
I'm not a Christian by practice, though I was for many, many years. And I'm fine telling someone - especially one that acts like this - that's he's not a Christian as far as I can see. That didn't sit well with him. For days he kept bringing it up and wanting to fight, which I obliged as I had the free time.
When I told Kenny he wasn't acting like a good Christian, he could have said 'Oh well' but he continued - for days - with the insults to not just me but others, almost always ending in a saving face/make it all right attempt of "God bless".
Later, I wondered if anyone has the right to call out someone who is or isn't acting like a Christian.
1) Are Christian to expect to be called out for their foolish behavior (rather or not it is), or should we all just mind our own business?
2) Are Christians (should Christians be) held to a higher standard of demeanor than non-Christians? Surely you shouldn't expect a Christian to defend themselves when personally attacked, but at what point does their defense change from defense to venomous hatred?
Because Christianity is so incredibly varied I've always believed the prudent approach to who-is and who-is-not a Christian is to let each individual decide for themselves, and I would go along with it. If you own slaves, kill practicing homosexuals, and feel women should remain silent in churches, and then call yourself a Christian that's fine by me . . . . . . . . . Oops! that's what you're already allowed to do as a conventional Christian. ......................Errrr, let me get back to you with some actually outlandish behaviors.
If you own slaves, kill practicing homosexuals, and feel women should remain silent in churches, and then call yourself a Christian that's fine by me . . . . . . . . . Oops! that's what you're already allowed to do as a conventional Christian. .
Actually, Christians aren't allowed to do any of those things.
The slavery of the Old Testament was NOT the slavery of the American South or even that of the Roman Empire. The word applies to indentured servants, that is, people who owed money, but could not pay it and, therefore, chose to work for the person to whom they owed money at which point they were free to head off on their own. All of these people were free after seven years whether they had paid off their debt or not and those to whom they owed the debt were to give them the means to make a fresh start. In a time when there was no welfare, this was an economic reality.
God NEVER told people to own slaves, only recognized that they would and did and, therefore, gave laws to prevent the abuse of these indentured servants.
In wartime, when the Israelites fought and killed male enemies, they were instructed to take women and children into their homes. Otherwise, they would have starved to death as they were totally dependent on men in the Ancient Near East.
Sadly, Americans in the ante-bellum South used the Bible to justify slavery, but that was a complete abuse of Scripture and wasn't a Christian practice at all. As it says in Gal. 3:28, there is no male or female, Jew or Gentile, slave or master in Christ. All are equal in his sight.
As for the mention of slaves in the New Testament, that didn't have anything to do with Christians. It was Roman law and Christians lived under it whether they liked it or not. If you want to understand how a Christian viewed slaves, read Paul's letter to Philemon in which Paul pleads for him to accept the slave Onesimus as a brother in Christ and not as a slave. See here:
As for killing homosexuals, again, that's a ridiculous and unfair accusation to make about Christians. It is annoying when atheists pick verses out of the Old Testament which have no application to Christianity at all. We live under a New Covenant. Take the example of the man who slept with his father's wife (1 Cor. 5:1). In other words, he was guilty of incest. This was a vile sin, but Paul did not order him to be killed. He instructed the church to discipline him by putting him out of the congregation. That is the Christian response regarding unrepentant sexual sin. See here:
And lastly, the topic of women. There is much to say about that. First of all, the statements that Paul made about women are not damning when they are properly understood. Sadly, a lot of people have misinterpreted them and used them against women. The interesting thing is that pagan philosophy had quite an influence on the early church (Aristotle referred to women as "botched men").
I do not have the time to visit each verse about women in the New Testament. Let me choose just a couple. In Ephesians, when Paul writes about husbands and wives, he says that they must submit TO EACH OTHER and that a man is to treat his wife the way that Christ treats the Church -- that is, he must love her with a sacrificial love. That speaks to the importance of women and is in direct contrast to what the Jews believed about women (they were second-class citizens to the Jews).
Paul, talking about women not speaking in church, is asking that women not chatter amongst themselves. We know that by his choice of verb. Consider this: women had not even been allowed to learn with the men before. Now they were. This is revolutionary. If you look at that verse in context, you will see that Paul's passage is all about keeping order and peace in the meetings. All of it was new to the women and they were chattering about it amongst themselves. Paul told them not to disrupt the service with their questions, but wait and talk about them with their husbands when they got home.
The word translated "head" has many meanings in Greek including "source", "cornerstone" and "protector". Any one of those meanings is a positive one for women. The man was to provide a safe home and be the rock on which his family could build. Nothing demeaning to women about that.
This subject is really too huge to talk about in a single post like this. But here is a site that has a lot of information about the topic. I encourage you to read some of the articles there so that you can get an accurate understanding of what the New Testament says about women.
There are also excellent scholarly books on the topic such as Rebecca Merrill Groothuis' Discovering Biblical Equality and Philip Payne's Man and Woman, One in Christ. See here:
Overcomer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:18 pm
The slavery of the Old Testament was NOT the slavery of the American South or even that of the Roman Empire. The word applies to indentured servants, that is, people who owed money, but could not pay it and, therefore, chose to work for the person to whom they owed money at which point they were free to head off on their own. All of these people were free after seven years whether they had paid off their debt or not and those to whom they owed the debt were to give them the means to make a fresh start.
No, all of these people were NOT free after seven years. Non-Israelites were treated differently than Israelites and could be owned for life just as black slaves in the Antebellum South. What we have once again is clear evidence that the God of the Bible is a God of favoritism not justice or equality.
Leviticus 25:44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
<bolding mine>
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
Overcomer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:18 pm
Miles wrote:
If you own slaves, kill practicing homosexuals, and feel women should remain silent in churches, and then call yourself a Christian that's fine by me . . . . . . . . . Oops! that's what you're already allowed to do as a conventional Christian. .
Actually, Christians aren't allowed to do any of those things.
Sure they are, and your strained apologetics here doesn't impress. The god of the Christians is the exact same god who unqualifiedly condones slavery, directs people to kill practicing homosexuals, and forbids women to speak in churches.
Leviticus 25:44-46 44 “About your men and women slaves: You may get men and women slaves from the other nations around you. 45 Also, you may get children as slaves if they come from the families of the foreigners living in your land. These child slaves will belong to you. 46 You may even pass these foreign slaves on to your children after you die so that they will belong to them. They will be your slaves forever. You may make slaves of these foreigners. But you must not be a cruel master over your own brothers, the Israelites.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And recall the unqualified pronouncement in 2 Timothy 3:16, which says:
16 All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. It is useful for correcting faults and teaching the right way to live.
So god's rather immoral and sexist proclamations still stand, and for everyone.
And just as an FYI:
The slavery of the Old Testament was NOT the slavery of the American South or even that of the Roman Empire.
Any differences aside, they all consist of one human owning another human, and that other human submitting to his owner's will.
Overcomer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:18 pmGod NEVER told people to own slaves, only recognized that they would and did and, therefore, gave laws to prevent the abuse of these indentured servants.
This reminds me of the polygamy discussion. God is perfectly capable of prohibiting that which He detests. The notion that God hates slavery, yet still allowed it because He "recognized" that people would keep slaves doesn't exactly square with the rest of His laws. Swear at somebody during a fistfight? Gather firewood on Saturday? Not bleed enough on your wedding night? Stone them to death with stones. Own other human beings as chattel? Be careful not to beat them so hard that they die right away.
Overcomer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:18 pmIn wartime, when the Israelites fought and killed male enemies, they were instructed to take women and children into their homes. Otherwise, they would have starved to death as they were totally dependent on men in the Ancient Near East.
Interesting spin, but it doesn't hold up to an actual reading of Deuteronomy 20. According to that chapter, slavery is assured whether or not the men are slain. The difference is that if the people surrender, then everyone is enslaved together (the Hebrew word/phrase לָמַ֖ס refers elsewhere to treatment as collective, forced laborers). If they try to defend themselves rather than surrender, then the males (it's unclear whether this means men only or, as in Numbers 31, it also includes baby boys) of the town are slaughtered, then the women and (remaining) children are divided up as the spoils of war. Of course, if the town is within Israel's designated Lebensraum, then everybody dies.
The merciful option here isn't being treated as a battle trophy, but presumably being allowed to be enslaved as a collective along with your still-living husbands and sons.
If God were as appalled by slavery as modern Christians assert that He is, then we would expect to find a commandment with a formula that all students of the Bible should recognize:
), and he ended everything with a 'God bless' statement. 
