Loving but not liking

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Loving but not liking

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

You can love someone without liking them. They may be a good person at heart, but you don't like how the talk to others, their political views, their style....whatever.

Can you love God without liking him?

You may be able to love God for what or who he is, but not like what he's done to people in the past (or what he's doing or allowing currently). Or not?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #31

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:04 pm
What evil means is the lesson.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you elaborate?
I meant, people wanted to know evil like God knows. That is why they were expelled to this reality, where we can experience evil and learn to know what it means. That is why the lesson ("life") is about what evil means.
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:04 pm
And there was other option, to learn directly from God's teaching,
I think many want this but they don't always get it. I've heard people elude to the fact that to understand God and what God wants, you may need the Holy Spirit. If that's true, that seems circular: you need the HS to understand but you won't know that until you understand God and what he wants, which needs the HS....
I think it is possible to learn what evil means, even if one doesn’t have the Holy Spirit. And also, God’s will is written in the Bible and it is basically “love your neighbor as yourself”. I believe it also can be understood without Holy Spirit.

In Bible, Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, it guides one to the truth. There are many things where that can be useful. But I think the basic matters should be clear even without the Spirit. All though, when it is the spirit of truth, it may be difficult to remain in truth without it.

However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.

John 16:13
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:04 pm
But, people wanted to know like God knows.
What's wrong with that?
I don’t say it is wrong. I think it can be painful. It would have been much easier, less painful, to know by listening to God and by letting him explain it.

User avatar
bluegreenearth
Guru
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Manassas, VA
Has thanked: 681 times
Been thanked: 470 times

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #32

Post by bluegreenearth »

1213 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:20 pm I think the seriousness of harm is very subjective. For example, if one brakes a nail, it can be very dramatic and cause even greater reaction than if some other person loses whole arm. I think it all depends on how person takes it. But obviously, many things are not nice, still, in Biblical point of view the focus should be on higher matters than this and that can make it easier to face unpleasant matters.
Understood, but the question we are attempting to answer is if it is possible for God to distinguish the people who freely love him from the people who don't without the need to place humanity in a situation where unnecessary or excessive harm (virtual or otherwise) results from granting them freewill. So far, there is no indication that your God couldn't have accomplished this objective, and we should reasonably expect an omnibenevolent god to have that objective and the ability to accomplish it. Therefore, why do we experience the types and levels of harm we do from freely chosen evil decisions when such conditions are not necessary for us to make freewill decisions and not necessary for God to distinguish those who freely love him from those who don't?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #33

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm
.. the question we are attempting to answer is if it is possible for God to distinguish the people who freely love him from the people who don't without the need to place humanity in a situation where unnecessary or excessive harm (virtual or otherwise) ....
He did. He picked a random tree and told them not to touch it.



Image

really?
GENESIS 2:16, 17

Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it ...
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #34

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm ...without the need to place humanity in a situation where unnecessary or excessive harm (virtual or otherwise) results from granting them freewill.
No harm resulted from the granting of freewill. Just as no harm comes from handing a person a lot of money or a sharp instrument. The granting itself simply provides the recipient with a choice, without that individual acting on the powers provided, the giving results in no more harm than simply holding a knife in one's hand does.

All bad choices result in consequences, choice without effect is no choice at all.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, RESPONSIBILITY and ...ORIGINAL SIN
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
bluegreenearth
Guru
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Manassas, VA
Has thanked: 681 times
Been thanked: 470 times

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #35

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #35]

Do you think there was a reason my question was written using the language and grammatical arrangement I chose? Before you went through the trouble of composing two separate responses where each response focused only on a single component of my question, did you consider how that strategy wouldn't actually provide an answer to what I was asking?

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #36

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to 1213 in post #32]
people wanted to know evil like God knows.
Did they? Seems to me, at least in the garden, they just wanted to know more, not necessarily just evil. To me, there's nothing wrong with knowing more. What's wrong is when people stop learning, stop wanting to know and become like robots: "You don't need to know that, just do what I say".
It would have been much easier, less painful, to know by listening to God and by letting him explain it.
Only if we don't have free thinking brains. Which we don't (well, at least some of us - others are more than content with just doing what they're told and accepting what they're told as total truth).
It didn't seem like God explained anything - he never does come to think of it. He just said "don't do it" (then seemingly turned his back knowing they were capable of sinning, came back all 'mad' and kicked them out).

Christians so often say "God doesn't want robots" but when people start thinking for themselves, Christians say we shouldn't do that and just listen to God. It's a double standard that many aren't keen on keeping.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #37

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:04 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #35]

Do you think there was a reason my question was written using the language and grammatical arrangement I chose?
Yes because you were I think trying to slip in a loaded question which would have gone unnoticed by a less astute reader. I seperate the elelments to address them without being forced to accept a premise I do not agree with.



JW




FURTHER READING Loaded Questions: What They Are and How to Respond to Them
https://effectiviology.com/loaded-question/



RELATED QUESTIONS


Why should one avoid loaded questions?
viewtopic.php?p=998022#p998022
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
bluegreenearth
Guru
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Manassas, VA
Has thanked: 681 times
Been thanked: 470 times

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #38

Post by bluegreenearth »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:00 am Yes because you were I think trying to slip in a loaded question which would have gone unnoticed by a less astute reader. I seperate the elelments to address them without being forced to accept a premise I do not agree with.
It is fine if you don't accept a premise you do not agree with, but it would have helped for you to provide an explanation for your objection. The responses you provided do not indicate how any premise in my question was objectionable or unreasonable.

According to your response, the scenario where God "picked a random tree and told them not to touch it" would have only applied to Adam and Eve. The scenario I'm evaluating involves God's ability to distinguish those from the rest of humanity who love him from those who don't. My evaluation began after someone posted the following argument:
If you don’t love others and do evil things to others, it also shows you don’t love God. And if you do evil things and make life of others miserable suffering, would it be loving to allow you to continue doing so? I don’t think so.

Do you think God should allow evil to continue forever? Would that be loving?
I responded to that argument with the following post:
Some skeptics argue that an omnibenevolent God would not have permitted evil to exist in the first place while some theologians counter with an apologetic claiming God's desire for humanity to have freewill compelled him to permit the choice between good and evil. However, are these two competing perspectives representing a false dichotomy? Consider a logically and theologically possible scenario where humanity is divinely created with the freewill to commit good or evil actions but with limitations on the consequences of their evil actions such that the harm resulting from them are only at the minimum levels necessary for God to distinguish the people who love him from those who don't. Is it reasonable to expect that it would be more loving for an omnibenevolent God to have placed humans in this less harmful scenario rather than in the scenario where we find ourselves?

After all, is it not the case that limitations on our capacity to commit evil acts already exist? For instance, no one has the capability of causing other people to experience physical pain by merely choosing to direct evil thoughts at them. If this restriction on our ability to inflict physical pain on each other by our thoughts alone does not prohibit our freewill to choose between good and evil thoughts or make it impossible for God to distinguish the people who love him from the people who don't, then is it reasonable to expect that an omnibenevolent God would have instituted additional and greater restrictions on the ability of our freely chosen evil actions to result in unnecessary or excessive harm? If we can be negatively judged for using our freewill to merely think evil thoughts without us having to actually act upon them or without us having to succeed in our attempts to act upon them, then what would be a reasonable justification for an omnibenevolent God to institute only some limitations on the capacity of our evil choices to cause harm?
Now that you have been provided with the proper context, would you like to provide a relevant response?

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #39

Post by 1213 »

bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm ...but the question we are attempting to answer is if it is possible for God to distinguish the people who freely love him from the people who don't without the need to place humanity in a situation where unnecessary or excessive harm...
I believe it is possible for God and I don’t think we have unnecessary or excessive harm, because nothing of this can destroy our soul.
bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:38 pm ...why do we experience the types and levels of harm we do from freely chosen evil decisions when such conditions are not necessary for us to make freewill decisions and not necessary for God to distinguish those who freely love him from those who don't?
I believe the reason is that people wanted it.

User avatar
bluegreenearth
Guru
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Manassas, VA
Has thanked: 681 times
Been thanked: 470 times

Re: Loving but not liking

Post #40

Post by bluegreenearth »

1213 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:38 pm I believe it is possible for God and I don’t think we have unnecessary or excessive harm, because nothing of this can destroy our soul.
Does God have the ability to grant freewill to a soul that isn't occupying a human body, or is a human body required for a soul to have freewill? If we had been created as souls with freewill and existed as souls without physical bodies, would God still have the ability to distinguish the souls who freely love and obey him from the souls who don't?

Post Reply