Do Alcoholics have Free Will?

[Purple Knight]

Suppose some booze bum actually wants to stop drinking. Suppose he tries as hard as anyone possibly could to quit and he simply can't resist alcohol.

Does he have free will?

[Realworldjack]

Is this to suggest that if one's body is addicted to alcohol, or drugs, they can simply stop, if they choose to?

Yes, if person truly wants to reject those, he can do that. Mind (soul/spirit) is greater than the body.

Is this to suggest, there really is no such thing as addiction, where one may really want, and see the need to stop what they are doing, but simply cannot because of the addiction?

Addiction really is only a strong desire for something that gives something that person likes very much. One way to get over drug for example is to learn to have the good thing without the drug. The key is to understand what one is fulfilling with the drug. And when person either understands it is not good what the drug is for, or that it is good, but there are better ways to achieve the good feeling, he can get over the desire to use the drug or other addictive unhealthy thing.

Drugs or alcohol are really to compensate something. Every good thing they could offer, is possible without the drug or alcohol. And they are only like shortcuts. If one wants to get rid of those, it is helpful to learn to know oneself well, what is the reason and what person gets from the drug. And those things are very much mental issues. But it may be also that there are physical symptoms in some cases. And I understand it can make it difficult to reject the thing that causes addiction. It is something that just must be suffered. It doesn’t take forever. And if person truly wants to get rid of the drug, it is possible. But not necessary very easy. And I think in difficult situation God and Jesus can help.

…The question then is, do we all really have "free will" according to the Biblical authors? Or, is our will in bondage to sin?

I do not have any Biblical reason to believe so. And at least I have free will and if I would do something stupid, I would blame only myself for it.

UMMM? You do realize there are those who have gone past the point of no return, and their body is addicted to the drug, or alcohol, and it really does not matter what their desire, or will would be, because their body now cannot function without the substance? Or, are you under the impression that the "will" is stronger than the addiction the body has, and it is simply a matter of the "will" overcoming the bodily addiction? Because you see, I actually know of folks who have been admitted to the hospital for lengths of time, and the Doctor would have to actually prescribe, a certain amount of beers to these folks, in order for their body to continue to function properly, since the body had become addicted to the substance.

Moreover, I believe there are certain drugs one's body can become addicted to, and if these folks were to stop taking these drugs cold turkey, it could cause very serious problems. And you seem to be suggesting, that all of this can be overcome, simply by the use of their "free will"? Really? I mean if this is what you are saying, then this "free will "of yours, is some powerful stuff?

Meanwhile, I do not understand the Biblical authors ever explaining to us that we could overcome the consequences of our sin, by using our "free will"? Rather, I understand the Biblical authors to be saying, the ultimate consequence of our sin, cannot be overcome by our "free will", but has rather been overcome, by the will of another.

So then, while you seem to be preaching, "free will", and "you can overcome with your free will", I am preaching to let go of your own efforts, and rather grab ahold of a God who is powerful enough to save, in spite of our weakness. Therefore, you seem to be suggesting that God is not powerful enough to save one whose body may have become addicted to the point they overdoes, and die, while I am suggesting that God is indeed powerful enough to save someone in this condition.

Therefore, while my body may not be addicted to any sort of substance, I am addicted to sin. So then, is it your suggestion that I can overcome this addiction with my "free will"? Have you overcome sin in your life? If not, is there a problem with your "free will"?

I do not have any Biblical reason to believe so.

Oh really? So you are suggesting you have no "Biblically reason to believe that your will is in bondage to sin"? Well what about this from, "The Apostle Paul"?

For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate. However, if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, that the Law is good. But now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Notice plainly here, that Paul says, "for the willing is present in me". In other words, he certainly seems to have the "will"? However he goes on to say, "but the doing of the good is not". It sounds sort of like, some sort of addition?

The point is, if you have overcome sin by "free will" then good for you, and you have no need to Christ. However, for those of us who like Paul, understand that we have not in any way accomplished this task, we say with Paul, "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

[Purple Knight]

there are those who have gone past the point of no return, and their body is addicted to the drug, or alcohol, and it really does not matter what their desire, or will would be, because their body now cannot function without the substance? Or, are you under the impression that the "will" is stronger than the addiction the body has, and it is simply a matter of the "will" overcoming the bodily addiction?

There seems to be a "try-harder" mentality that's developed mainly because it's healthy. It's healthy because, if the cause of failure is not 100% known, it is better to keep trying than not. Some people supposedly quit their addiction, but once they taste their drug again, they're back where they were, unable to make themselves stop.

I can't voluntarily suffocate by simply refusing to breathe, but why not? Those are voluntary muscles; they're under my control, aren't they?

Is there some degree of willpower, just trying harder, that would allow me to suicide by voluntary suffocation?

If not, does that disprove free will?

[nobspeople]

Succeeding or not is not the measurement for free will. Not that I believe 'everyone had free will as Christians seem to say', but by trying shows the ability to make a decision and thus, literal free will.
Rather or not someone is or isn't destined, due to some grand scheme/plan, is something a bit different but, doesn't negate literal free will.

This again is free will in a jar: One may make choices despite the lack of ability to have one's brain and body abide by those choices.

I actually don't argue against free will in a jar; I just think it's a sorry state.

How would you design or like to see the opposite of 'free will in a jar'?
What would that look like to you?

[Purple Knight]

How would you design or like to see the opposite of 'free will in a jar'?
What would that look like to you?

Free will without the jar would mean I had control of my actions. If I wanted to self-suffocate simply by refusing to breathe, I could.

Though arguably, free will being inside of the jar is a much better proof we have free will. If there's a "me" that's independent of my brain and body and he wants to voluntarily stop breathing, even if he's imprisoned in the brain and body and thus cannot do so, you could certainly say this proves the existence of a self that has free will - can make choices - it just can't act on them.

[bluegreenearth]

Suppose some booze bum actually wants to stop drinking. Suppose he tries as hard as anyone possibly could to quit and he simply can't resist alcohol.

Does he have free will?

Even if the alcoholic does manage to resist the compulsion to consume alcohol, did this person make a free choice or was this person merely compelled to make a choice by some other external influence to not drink? If the alcoholic was not compelled by some other reason to make that choice, then did this person randomly make the choice?

[Dimmesdale]

Suppose some booze bum actually wants to stop drinking. Suppose he tries as hard as anyone possibly could to quit and he simply can't resist alcohol.

Does he have free will?

A question that occurred to me is: how does the guy even know himself whether he is sincere, that he really wants to stop drinking, and isn't kidding himself?

Free will for me is not something completely in-the-moment, such that you can immediately re-orient yourself in a completely different direction. Take a tyrant. It is conceivable that a tyrant, when he was younger and less tyrannical, had a softer heart. But as his immoral life took a slope (not a dive, a slope) he gradually became more merciless, to the point where he for all intents and purposes cannot change, unless some grace, some external support comes to raise his soul up to a decent platform.

For me when it comes to the moral life there is a sense in which you cannot fully trust yourself. If you think to yourself "now I am going to stop drinking" you should ask whether you have the same determination now as you once WOULD have, or COULD have had, 10 years ago.

To put it bluntly, it's very hard to say.

[Dimmesdale]

Suppose some booze bum actually wants to stop drinking. Suppose he tries as hard as anyone possibly could to quit and he simply can't resist alcohol.

Does he have free will?

A question that occurred to me is: how does the guy even know himself whether he is sincere, that he really wants to stop drinking, and isn't kidding himself?

Free will for me is not something completely in-the-moment, such that you can immediately re-orient yourself in a completely different direction. Take a tyrant. It is conceivable that a tyrant, when he was younger and less tyrannical, had a softer heart. But as his immoral life took a slope (not a dive, a slope) he gradually became more merciless, to the point where he for all intents and purposes cannot change, unless some grace, some external support comes to raise his soul up to a decent platform.

For me when it comes to the moral life there is a sense in which you cannot fully trust yourself. If you think to yourself "now I am going to stop drinking" you should ask whether you have the same determination now as you once WOULD have, or COULD have had, 10 years ago.

To put it bluntly and honestly, it's very hard to say.

[Purple Knight]

Even if the alcoholic does manage to resist the compulsion to consume alcohol, did this person make a free choice or was this person merely compelled to make a choice by some other external influence to not drink? If the alcoholic was not compelled by some other reason to make that choice, then did this person randomly make the choice?

He certainly might be. But a self independent of the brain and body's choices that despises and reviles those choices is the best evidence of any sort of free will that we can get.

A question that occurred to me is: how does the guy even know himself whether he is sincere, that he really wants to stop drinking, and isn't kidding himself?

You'd have to have the experience of free will in a jar to refute that. You would have to witness your brain and body acting in a way other than you wish it to and be at the point of total emotional breakage - in other words, you know you would do anything to get out of this situation - for not being able to control your own self.

If the self that's in a jar is equally determined, that could certainly be, and there's not too good a way to prove it isn't, but imo it's the best evidence you can get of any sort of free will.

[1213]

…You do realize there are those who have gone past the point of no return, and their body is addicted to the drug, or alcohol, and it really does not matter what their desire, or will would be, because their body now cannot function without the substance? …

Sorry, I don’t believe there is such point as long as person is living. But, I understand that it is not easy and I also can believe that not many would do it on their own.

…Meanwhile, I do not understand the Biblical authors ever explaining to us that we could overcome the consequences of our sin, by using our "free will"? Rather, I understand the Biblical authors to be saying, the ultimate consequence of our sin, cannot be overcome by our "free will", but has rather been overcome, by the will of another…

I think sin is not same as drugs. Sin means basically that one rejects God and does things against God’s will. If you have done something, you can’t undo it. You could perhaps stop continuing to do it, but what has happened, can’t be changed. It is basically same as if you brake the law and get caught, you deserve judgment and it is in the judge’s hands what happens to you, not in yours anymore.

And in the Bible, the wage of sin is death. So, for everyone in sinful state, has death waiting. There is nothing you can do to avoid it, if you have sin (have rejected God). But, nice thing is that God has offered forgiveness and way to become righteous so that one could have the eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

… Therefore, you seem to be suggesting that God is not powerful enough to save one whose body may have become addicted to the point they overdoes, and die, while I am suggesting that God is indeed powerful enough to save someone in this condition…

I believe God can save person from addiction and it may be that in some cases it is only possible with God’s help, because He can help to change person’s mind for the better. But in that case also, it depends on, does the person want it.

…Therefore, while my body may not be addicted to any sort of substance, I am addicted to sin. So then, is it your suggestion that I can overcome this addiction with my "free will"? Have you overcome sin in your life? If not, is there a problem with your "free will"?…

Can you tell what do you think sin means? I have understood it is basically that person rejects God, which can also lead also to braking God’s commandments.

And what do you think is the reason why you can’t overcome it?

It is sad, if we have not renounced sin, because eternal life is promised for righteous, and….

…let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

…Oh really? So you are suggesting you have no "Biblically reason to believe that your will is in bondage to sin"? Well what about this from, "The Apostle Paul"?…

If I sin, it happens by my choice, except if I don’t know what is sin. I am not programmed to sin. There is no other who chooses on my behalf. If there would be, I would not be guilty.

[brunumb]

And in the Bible, the wage of sin is death. So, for everyone in sinful state, has death waiting. There is nothing you can do to avoid it, if you have sin (have rejected God). But, nice thing is that God has offered forgiveness and way to become righteous so that one could have the eternal life.

Bible or no Bible, death awaits everyone. The Bible is religious propaganda, not an historical record. Eternal life is just a carrot dangled in front of the credulous to lure them into a religious sect. It's a lot like a lobster pot. Once you are inside it is not that easy to find a way out and your fate is sealed.