Nonjudgmentalism

[Purple Knight]

Question for debate: Can you be nonjudgmental while still avoiding sin yourself?

Nonjudgmentalism is a difficult concept for me. In my mind, if something is wrong, so that I ought to avoid doing it, then I cannot blind myself to the fact that that fellow over there is doing it presently. I cannot hold myself accountable and absolve him.

Now, I can do nothing, I can cast no stones upon him, but if I'm to be expected to know X is wrong if I'm about to do it, I cannot quit knowing that when that fellow does it. So in that way I cannot avoid judging him. I have judged him as having done something wrong. It's not a judgment I can avoid because I cannot blind myself to the fact that he has indeed done that thing and I cannot simply selectively forget that it's supposed to be wrong.

I have tried fooling myself, and saying, well, he probably has circumstances that I do not, which may excuse him, but this is intentional self-trickery and I understand that and thus do not fall for it. What are those circumstances, I want to know. I've a right to know; I ought to know what is right and wrong and under what circumstances. I oughtn't be ashamed of pursuing that knowledge.

[Purple Knight]

Criminals: People who do things that hurt others so much that those things ought to be illegal because society cannot function if people are allowed to do them. Things like murder, rape, and fraud.

I think that this needs to be expanded upon. Take out the 'so much' from your statement;

"People who do things that hurt others...

...that those things ought to be illegal because"

Now add well "a balanced and happy..."

"...society cannot function if people are allowed to do them. "

Then extend the list of crimes to include all those other things.

Better?

Mostly, yes. But even a society that doesn't have the aim of being well-balanced and happy can be ruined by allowing murder and rape. Assume, for example, the society was deliberately totalitarian and had the aim of order, rather than happiness.

In other words, I think "don't allow murder" may be even more basic (though not more moral) than "don't be Nazis".

The point is, I can't just look at a murderer and say, well, I forgive him, he knows not what he does, poor thing, he certainly shouldn't go to jail.

That's literally what forgiveness is. You don't want them punished. You don't want that debt repaid.

So no. I don't forgive him. He murdered, he needs to go to jail. That doesn't mean I can't be sympathetic (for example, Red from The Shawshank Redemption is supposed to be sympathised with) but that was because he was in jail. He took a hit to his wellbeing because he murdered. He was punished because he murdered.

So of course I forgive him. Even in the hypothetical world where he did something to me, he's forgiven.

...After he is punished. I want a properly punishing punishment, then bygones. But just forgiving murderers and letting them go? No. That's insane.

[William]

Criminals: People who do things that hurt others so much that those things ought to be illegal because society cannot function if people are allowed to do them. Things like murder, rape, and fraud.

I think that this needs to be expanded upon. Take out the 'so much' from your statement;

"People who do things that hurt others...

...that those things ought to be illegal because"

Now add well "a balanced and happy..."

"...society cannot function if people are allowed to do them. "

Then extend the list of crimes to include all those other things.

Better?

Mostly, yes. But even a society that doesn't have the aim of being well-balanced and happy can be ruined by allowing murder and rape. Assume, for example, the society was deliberately totalitarian and had the aim of order, rather than happiness.

In other words, I think "don't allow murder" may be even more basic (though not more moral) than "don't be Nazis".

The point is, I can't just look at a murderer and say, well, I forgive him, he knows not what he does, poor thing, he certainly shouldn't go to jail.

That's literally what forgiveness is. You don't want them punished. You don't want that debt repaid.

So no. I don't forgive him. He murdered, he needs to go to jail. That doesn't mean I can't be sympathetic (for example, Red from The Shawshank Redemption is supposed to be sympathised with) but that was because he was in jail. He took a hit to his wellbeing because he murdered. He was punished because he murdered.

So of course I forgive him. Even in the hypothetical world where he did something to me, he's forgiven.

...After he is punished. I want a properly punishing punishment, then bygones. But just forgiving murderers and letting them go? No. That's insane.

Then likewise it would be insane to forgive scientist's who worked for political agenda to create more fear. But since that is the world we live in, if it is justice that you require and if that means you remain judgmental, then regardless of the reasons that you give, or the society you live in, you contribute to that thing.

For that thing is unforgiving by nature...

Mirror Mirror.

[Purple Knight]

Then likewise it would be insane to forgive scientist's who worked for political agenda to create more fear. But since that is the world we live in, if it is justice that you require and if that means you remain judgmental, then regardless of the reasons that you give, or the society you live in, you contribute to that thing.

For that thing is unforgiving by nature...

Mirror Mirror.

I don't want forgiveness either, though.

If I do something wrong, I want to be punished appropriately for it.

After I have taken that hit - after I have been punished enough to now be worse off than if I had never done that evil in the first place, thereby proving I didn't just want to reap the self-benefit from doing evil then be forgiven - I want bygones to be bygones. That's exactly what I extend to others.

Or do they deserve better?

[William]

Then likewise it would be insane to forgive scientist's who worked for political agenda to create more fear. But since that is the world we live in, if it is justice that you require and if that means you remain judgmental, then regardless of the reasons that you give, or the society you live in, you contribute to that thing.

For that thing is unforgiving by nature...

Mirror Mirror.

I don't want forgiveness either, though.

If I do something wrong, I want to be punished appropriately for it.

After I have taken that hit - after I have been punished enough to now be worse off than if I had never done that evil in the first place, thereby proving I didn't just want to reap the self-benefit from doing evil then be forgiven - I want bygones to be bygones. That's exactly what I extend to others.

Or do they deserve better?

I suppose it is all very well saying such as you have, but would it be the case if you actually committed such crimes, or would you react differently?

Scientifically speaking, that cannot be answered without undergoing tests, and we best not go there.

It is not for me to say who deserves what [that would be judge-mentalism] but I do know that for me, forgiving those who had seriously hurt me, did more good for my overall mental health than I imagine would have been the case if I had wanted justice.

I did not want to remain a victim of their crimes against me, and thus my alternative was to forgive them, therefore breaking any spell [transforming negative energy] that their actions against me, had produced.

Being free from such, and with an understanding that we do seem to often attract the exact energy frequencies we 'put out' into the world [once we come of age] I felt that for me, "forgive and get on" was the far better option.

I do not begrudge those who want to remain under the influence of negative energies, because there are also lessons to learn therein.

"It's All Good" as the saying goes - just a matter of preferences.

It is a bad-ass world - so swings and roundabouts - hard and knocks - trips and falls...it happens. We deal with it.