Is salvation in John's Gospel through belief alone?

[Difflugia]

A little bit ago, Mithrae was engaging with me about whether Matthew 7:13-14 and John 3:16 could be harmonized without changing what one or both authors meant. I stopped to think about one of their posts and never responded, so I figured I'd pick it back up again. Since the original thread was mostly unrelated to that discussion and the digression was my fault, I decided to start a new topic. The "question" is Mithrae's last response to me:

John never ties eternal life to loving him, keeping the commandments, or being a loyal Christian, but only to belief in him. Those that love Jesus and keep the commandments are counted as disciples, will be able to perform miraculous deeds, and have the comfort of the Paraclete, but Jesus came to remove the sin of the whole world. Mere belief in Jesus is enough to secure everlasting life. John explicitly makes that point by comparing Jesus himself to the serpent staff that Moses made in the wilderness. Those afflicted by sin must believe (3:16) in the same way that those bitten by the fiery serpents only needed to look upon the staff to be saved (3:14, Numbers 21:8). If one turns the "believe in" of 3:16 into some sort of active discipleship, then I don't think the analogy with the serpent makes sense.

Does it make sense to "believe in" the Jesus the Word of God while ignoring all of his teaching and example... or that in John's binary world of darkness and light, there was nevertheless a big group in the middle who "believe in" Jesus but don't love him or one another? If we're forced to choose between a nonsensical analogy of the serpent or a nonsensical theology as a whole, I'm thinking it's the analogy which would have been flawed. But the Israelites who were saved by looking at the serpent weren't then free to go off and do whatever they pleased, were they? They were bound to obey; in fact it was because of their reluctance to obey - not even active disobedience but mere complaints - that the serpents were sent in the first place!

Seems to me that John simply starts at the beginning (very much so at the beginning, in his prologue) first with the invitation to "come and see" (ch1), then with believing, then with commitment, obedience and love. If we applied the approach that most Christians (and it seems you) are taking towards John 3:16 elsewhere - say to the story in which Jesus exclaims "salvation has come to this house" after Zacchaeus' declaration of intent - we might conclude that merely saying you'll give a bunch of money to the poor and those you've wronged is sufficient for salvation... no need to actually follow through. Presumably Zacchaeus' declaration would be meaningless without follow-through even though Luke doesn't explicitly describe the follow-through. John's gospel does emphasize the follow-through of love and obedience, so how can anyone imagine that he taught salvation through some kind of empty 'belief'?

Edit to add:

John never ties eternal life to loving him, keeping the commandments, or being a loyal Christian, but only to belief in him.

Just thought I'd better fact-check this a little more specifically:

• 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.
  6:54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day;
  12:25 Those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
  12:47 I do not judge anyone who hears my words and does not keep them, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my word has a judge; on the last day the word that I have spoken will serve as judge, 49 for I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I speak, therefore, I speak just as the Father has told me.

[tam]

Peace to you,

In John, what did Jesus say to do?

The one example I was reminded of from my Lord is to follow the example that He has set for us.

John 13:13-15

“You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

Yep. To be honest, I've read that more times than I can count, but never took it as a literal expectation of Christians. Whether it was actually intended as such, it's written as though it is.

Indeed.

Christ literally washed their feet, after all.

(and one who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; see also 1 Timothy 5:10).

And there are a lot of examples that He has set for us: forgiving,

The only possible reference to forgiveness in John is in 20:22-23, where the power of the Holy Spirit as exhaled by Jesus apparently gives the disciples the power to forgive sins. They're not commanded (or even advised) to forgive sins, but there's a parallelism that suggests that whether sins are "released" (usually translated as "forgiven") or "held" is up to the discretion of the disciple.

When I referred to the example of forgiveness and mercy just from "John", I was thinking about the woman brought to Him (to be stoned) for adultery. He saved her life (mercy) and did not stone her (though He could have cast the first stone by the standard He'd given to the others: the one without sin may throw the first stone). That story continues to be fleshed out in the other testimonies though (Luke 7, but also John 11:2).


(Your aside is interesting, thank you. As one of my own - though we go beyond "john" - 'releasing' or 'holding' makes sense to me because that is the point of the keys to the Kingdom of heaven. Matthew 16:19; 18:18, John 20:23)

obeying the Father (which means obeying the Son),

Jesus obeys and does the works of the Father, but the only thing the Father asks of anyone else is that they believe in Jesus, love Jesus, and follow the commandment of Jesus, which is...

loving one another as Christ loved us, etc. And that is just from what is recorded in "John".

So, we have:

• Wash each other's feet
• Believe in and love Jesus
• Love each other

And so we can conclude that salvation is not through 'belief alone'. Belief (or rather, faith) is accompanied by deeds. Or what is the point of it?

If Noah had believed God when God told him that He was sending a flood, but then did not build an ark (or get on that ark), then Noah (and his household) would have died in the flood. His 'mere belief' would not have saved him or his household. As it is, he believed AND obeyed, and saved not only himself, but also his household (those alive at the time and those not yet born).

I am going to emphasize what Mithrae said above about the commandment to eat His flesh and drink His blood (deeds), especially since Christ linked this to eternal life:

John 6:53, 54
“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

I've read John 6 now a few dozen times since you and Mithrae mentioned it and it keeps reading to me as an allegorical Eucharist where "eating flesh" and "drinking blood" are metaphors for belief. I'm sure that John knew the Synoptics, so I'm aware that I'm saying that John is consciously redefining the "supper" ritual as it stands in Matthew, Mark, and Luke into something spiritual, beginning with 6:27-29:

Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

6:33-35:

For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

6:47-48:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life. I am the bread of life.

It is one thing to believe that Christ is the bread of life; but what good will that do someone if they do not go and EAT from that bread?

Remember, he who is faithful in what is least is also faithful in much. We can also see from the other testimonies that this is not just allegorical, though many did not understand what Christ meant at this time. That being said - and this will go to who truly believed in Him - many left. Now how could they have left if they had truly believed Him to be the Son of God, sent by God? The Twelve remained, because the Twelve truly believed that Christ was from God, and "the one who has the words of eternal life."

John 6:66-69

"From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. “You do not want to leave too, do you?” [Jesus] asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

If you believe in someone (truly), how can you not believe what they say - including what they say about their Father - and then do what they say to do?

What is the difference for you between "belief" and "true belief?"

I actually just meant someone who does believe, versus someone who does not believe (but who might claim otherwise).

I know plenty of people that believe that cigarette smoking is harmful, yet smoke cigarettes.

Perhaps they believe the harm is something that will only happen to others (so a sense of denial)? Or perhaps they want to quit, but have not been able to quit. The addiction involved there muddies the waters a bit, in that a person may not be able to find the strength or the will to stop doing something that they know is harmful. The flesh being at enmity with the spirit.

I also know plenty of people that, as far as I can discern, truly believe that Jesus is their lord and savior, yet don't wash anyone's feet but their own.

Could be that they never saw this command (even if they had read this chapter many times before).

Could also be that they read it, but refused to see it because they did not WANT to do this (for whatever reason). So perhaps they tell themselves that it was not meant for them, or they listen to others (instead of to Christ) who tell them that it was not meant for them.

But Christ also said to His apostles (though not recorded in "John"): "Go and make disciples of all nations.... teaching them to obey ALL that I have commanded YOU."

You're welcome to argue that they may not truly believe, but you'll have to do more than simply assert it.

I wasn't really arguing that point. I was asking a question. To that point though, that might be more for such ones to reflect upon themselves, perhaps considering Christ's own words:

"Why do you call me Lord, yet do not do what I say?" See Luke 6:46-49

See also John 14:15, 21, 23; John 15: 10. Note in all of those, He speaks of obeying HIS command. Not the commands of others (such as religions, religious leaders, oneself, etc).

(And again, some are just not aware of these commands. Once aware, some will obey what Christ says - looking to Him to know the truth of the matter.)




My question remains though.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Biblically, faith and belief are not the same things.

Prove it.

Faith is spoken of as a fruit of God's spirit, belief is not.

GALATIANS 5: 22, 23 NWT

The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”

JAMES 2:19 - NWT

You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder

JW

To read more please go to other posts related to ....

FAITH, GOD and ...THE BIBLE

[Difflugia]

Biblically, faith and belief are not the same things.

Prove it.

Faith is spoken of as a fruit of God's spirit, belief is not.

How does that apply to John's gospel? I'm not going to make your argument for you.