Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[brunumb]

Oh, and I see you have faith that there is some magical numberland that harbors mathematical principles and constructs just waiting to be discovered by mathematicians. Sorry, but there simply is no evidence for such a place, and your faith in it is blind faith.

I have no idea where that utterly ridiculous notion of yours came from.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Oh, and I see you have faith that there is some magical numberland that harbors mathematical principles and constructs just waiting to be discovered by mathematicians. Sorry, but there simply is no evidence for such a place, and your faith in it is blind faith.

I have no idea where that utterly ridiculous notion of yours came from.

It came from your post # 138:

Circles, square and lines existed long before mathematicians. All they did was discover the rules and relationships pertaining to those things and give them names.

If circles, squares and lines existed long before mathematicians, then where were they? They had to be somewhere. The idea of a magical numberland follows logically from your faith-based belief that circles, squares and lines existed before people were able to think about them.

Pi is just the result of what we humans invented and what we did not expect.

We did not invent circles, squares or pi.

The first time a person imagined an infinite number of points equidistant from a single, central point, circles were invented. Squares were invented when we first thought up a set of two parallel line segments of equal length connected at their endpoints to another set of two line segments of equal length perpendicular to the first set. We made up the number pi the first time we decided to divide the length of a circle's diameter into its circumference.

So it's easy to see that math is invented and not discovered. Math is the product of the human mind and used by people to accomplish tasks that concern us. Nature doesn't care what time it is, but we do. Nature doesn't care who owns what, but we do. Nature cares nothing about what our structures look like or how capacious they are, but we do. Our numbers and geometric figures exist only in our heads, and they are at best rough reflections of what exists in the real world.

There is no evidence that biblical Jesus even existed, let alone that any promises he made can be counted on. That's where faith comes in and it is not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

We have loads of documentary evidence for a historical Jesus, and his promises of the church have been realized. There is then reason to base Christian faith on.

Let me conclude this post by pointing out that the logic you are using is unsound. You really ran off the rails when you claimed that math is discovered which is a belief as silly as any doctrine in religion. Secularists are always criticizing Christians for their supposed irrationality, but we can see that secularists can be every bit as illogical as any Christian.

[brunumb]

We have loads of documentary evidence for a historical Jesus, and his promises of the church have been realized.

We have none. Hence, faith.

Let me conclude this post by pointing out that the logic you are using is unsound. You really ran off the rails when you claimed that math is discovered which is a belief as silly as any doctrine in religion. Secularists are always criticizing Christians for their supposed irrationality, but we can see that secularists can be every bit as illogical as any Christian.

Manipulation of numbers as done in mathematics is an invented process, yes. But things like circles and lines existed long before human beings did. They are not invented. When a drop of water fell into a pool and circular ripples radiated out, humans were not necessary for that to happen. The laws governing those things existed and were only discovered after the mathematics was invented to allow that to happen. Pi was not invented, it was discovered. Better?

[Paul of Tarsus]

We have loads of documentary evidence for a historical Jesus, and his promises of the church have been realized.

We have none. Hence, faith.

What you claim here is simply untrue.

...things like circles and lines existed long before human beings did. They are not invented. When a drop of water fell into a pool and circular ripples radiated out, humans were not necessary for that to happen. The laws governing those things existed and were only discovered after the mathematics was invented to allow that to happen.

You are confusing physical systems that have a circular shape with circles. Circles are not physical although they are very useful for describing waves that radiate out from a point at which a drop of water entered a pool. Humans needed to come up with the idea of a circle to describe such systems, and that's why we invented the concept of circles. They were not lying around in the woods.

Pi was not invented, it was discovered. Better?

No better. Do you think that posting a creed is supposed to prove your claim? Anyway, please describe the circumstances under which pi was discovered. Was it under a rock somewhere? But seriously, probably the major weakness of your position is that there simply is no place that harbors mathematical constructs and concepts where they wait to be discovered. It's a rather vacuous idea--something like Lewis Carroll would come up with. (Carroll was a mathematician, by the way.)

[Compassionist]

Reason can lead you to believe what is false. The UFO people, for example, have come up with tons of reasons to believe that ETs are abducting people. I think you agree with me that they are wrong, yet you don't abandon reason when it fails so badly.

They might have tons of reasons to believe, but are they based on evidence? Are their claims provably false? It seems to me that those people are also using faith as a basis for their beliefs. They are accepting claims as true in the absence of evidence. You can't simply reason something into existence.

I agree totally.

[Paul of Tarsus]

How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity?

Biblically illness happens because of humans inherited sinful condition. It is a byproduct of human imperfection.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sinful condition," but I do agree that our nature sometimes drives us to sin. Contrary to some theology, I don't think it's possible to inherit sin, though, because it makes no sense to hold a person responsible for what that person never did. We suffer the way we do because we are made in the image of God, and therefore like he we seek to know and want to act autonomously. At times we will want to know what God does not want us to know, and at other times we will defy his authority. In both cases conflict between us and God results. God simply is not able to free us from suffering when there is such conflict.

Why would a God allow sickness?

Because it is not yet His time to reverse the effects of Adamic sin.

What is that time, and why is God waiting until then? The effects of Adam's sin vanished long ago.

[JehovahsWitness]

What is that time ...?

Nibliczlly, the time is the moment God has fixed to settle affairs. We cannot know the exact date.

... why is God waiting until then?

Because it will take until then to settle the essential issues raised.


JW




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[Paul of Tarsus]

What is that time ...?

Nibliczlly, the time is the moment God has fixed to settle affairs. We cannot know the exact date.

If you did specify a date, then all we would need to do is wait until that day to see that you are wrong. It's happened often enough already.

... why is God waiting until then?

Because it will take until then to settle the essential issues raised.

Another possibility is that God never told those who claim to speak for him that he would do away with the world's troubles, and that's why those troubles never go away.

[bluegreenearth]

Anyway, please describe the circumstances under which pi was discovered. Was it under a rock somewhere? But seriously, probably the major weakness of your position is that there simply is no place that harbors mathematical constructs and concepts where they wait to be discovered. It's a rather vacuous idea--something like Lewis Carroll would come up with. (Carroll was a mathematician, by the way.)

I understood Brunumb's statement about "Pi" to mean it was the consistently observed physical relationship between the circumference of any circular-shaped material thing to the diameter of that circular-shaped material thing that was discovered, and "Pi" is just the symbolic and linguistic representation of that discovery.

[William]

Anyway, please describe the circumstances under which pi was discovered. Was it under a rock somewhere? But seriously, probably the major weakness of your position is that there simply is no place that harbors mathematical constructs and concepts where they wait to be discovered. It's a rather vacuous idea--something like Lewis Carroll would come up with. (Carroll was a mathematician, by the way.)

I understood Brunumb's statement about "Pi" to mean it was the consistently observed physical relationship between the circumference of any circular-shaped material thing to the diameter of that circular-shaped material thing that was discovered, and "Pi" is just the symbolic and linguistic representation of that discovery.

Is there any scientific evidence that supports pi didn't always exist and was invented rather than discovered?