Apologetics & Illness

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Paul of Tarsus
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Apologetics & Illness

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #161

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Tcg wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:10 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:28 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:14 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:03 pm It's important to understand that circles were invented.
Are you saying that circles did not exist before they were invented?
Yes, of course. Diesel engines did not exist before they were invented either.
I wonder what humans did for eyesight before someone invented circles?

Image
I already addressed these topics in posts 154 and 159. If I didn't make myself clear on those posts, then feel free to ask questions.

Anyway, if anybody is disappointed that math is not discovered, they are not completely out of luck. There is a discovery of sorts in mathematics although it is not discovery in the sense that Pluto was discovered by astronomers. As mathematicians extend and apply the rules and methods that make up mathematics, they often realize something that they or perhaps nobody realized before. For example, James Stewart, the author of the Calculus text I'm studying, credits Newton with the "discovery" of the binomial series where (1 + x)^k can be represented as an infinite series. Essentially all the parts of Newton's work had already been developed (the summations of infinite series, factorials, etc.). Newton just realized that he could use those ideas to describe (1 + x)^k as an infinite polynomial. Call it a "discovery" if you want to.

Finally, a good example of mathematical invention is the creation of curves in the x-y plane using functions of x. For instance, take f(x) = cx^2 where c is any real number. Different values of c result in different curves. You just use some value of c that nobody ever tried before, and you invented a curve!

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #162

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:44 pm Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.
Paul seemed to suffer from thorn in the side, given to him by his pal Satan, with pouts of deafness, blindness, and imagery, often called in the modern world as "Saint Paul's disease". https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +to+resign
As for healing, that requires forgiveness of sins, which no one in the churches of the Harlots of Babylon, have the power to do (James 5:15-16).
As for those fearful of Covid 19, they are generally among the walking dead. As for casting out demons, the current Catholic pope tried it once, and failed, yet went out and appointed 500 demon caster outers. As for sickness and faiths, the Mormons, appear to live longer, not because of righteous beliefs, but probably because they limit their intake of meat. The mostly Catholic Italians, seem to have less heart disease, but most probably because of their wine and olive oil consumption. The people who "strongly discouraged" coming together, would be the Progressives, those who think they can determine good from evil, who are afraid of their own shadow. Go into the hinterlands, were they love God, and guns, you will find open carry of guns and bibles, with no or little mask requirements. The little 90 pound lady is open carrying her custom pistol, and fears neither people, politicians, or some virus.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #163

Post by bluegreenearth »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:54 pm At best, any such measurements of circular objects' diameters and circumferences would result in rough approximations of π. It is impossible to determine π using physical measurements because π is an irrational number which is to say that it cannot be expressed as the ratio of two integers. π is 3.14159... where the digits to the right of the decimal do not repeat and go on without limit. That's why π cannot be "discovered" using physical measurements. That π is an irrational number and approximations of its value were determined by mathematicians using the man-made rules and techniques of mathematics. One such method is to add the lengths of the sides of polygons with sides of equal length (pentagons, hexagons, etc.) inscribed in a circle. As the number of sides increases and approaches infinity, the sum of the lengths of the sides of the polygons inscribed in the circle approach the length of the circle's circumference. Divide the diameter of the circle into that infinite sum, and the result is π.

Another reason physical measurements cannot give us the value of π is because the "real" world is a messy place. No object can be perfectly circular because it is three-dimensional and made up of bumpy atoms with electrons spinning around the nuclei. A circle, by contrast, is an infinite set of points on a two-dimensional plane wherein each point is equidistant from a central point on the plane. A circle is perfectly neat. You won't find them in the real world. Generally, the geometric shapes and other constructs made up by mathematicians are at best approximations of physical systems. That's why physicists apply their math to "ideal" physical systems. There are no ideals in the physical world.

Anyway, why is it so important to you that math be "discovered"? Is it part of a philosophy you like?
I understand your point. However, my concern is that we should be careful not to confuse the map for the territory. After an early explorer "discovered" a territory on Earth that wasn't previously known to exist, the "invention" of cartography allowed this territory to be depicted as a uniquely shaped polygon on a map in relation to the other known territories depicted as uniquely shaped polygons on the same map. They didn't subsequently point to the polygon on the map representing this previously unknown territory and claim the territory was invented rather than discovered. Math is like the map and the physical properties of the material universe is the territory.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #164

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:00 pmPaul seemed to suffer from thorn in the side, given to him by his pal Satan, with pouts of deafness, blindness, and imagery, often called in the modern world as "Saint Paul's disease".
I was referring to Jesus and "the twelve" as having no known physical illnesses or disabilities. It sounds like Paul may have been suffering from a mental illness.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #165

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

bluegreenearth wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:17 pmI understand your point. However, my concern is that we should be careful not to confuse the map for the territory. After an early explorer "discovered" a territory on Earth that wasn't previously known to exist, the "invention" of cartography allowed this territory to be depicted as a uniquely shaped polygon on a map in relation to the other known territories depicted as uniquely shaped polygons on the same map.
I'm with you so far. While few geographical territories have the shapes of regular polygons, maps are analogous to geometrical shapes in that they were invented to represent and study real-world things.

But why did you put the word "invention" pertaining to cartography in quotation marks? Are you disputing that cartography is invented?
They didn't subsequently point to the polygon on the map representing this previously unknown territory and claim the territory was invented rather than discovered.
I hope they didn't say the territory is invented. The territory wasn't invented of course, but the map that represents that territory is made by people. People invented cartography. In the same way people invented math to represent and create physical objects that have various shapes that people find useful or aesthetic.
Math is like the map and the physical properties of the material universe is the territory.
That's a good analogy! Math and cartography are both human inventions created to communicate and symbolize physical objects and places.

So it looks like you set out to dispute my position only to argue for my position. Why the resistance? For some strange reason people either hate the idea that math is invented and love the idea that it's discovered or both.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #166

Post by William »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #166]

I think what we are trying to say is that when you are speaking about invented math you are speaking about things which are invented rather than discovered. That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented. Some math was discovered and that math has to do with what humans have not invented. The "real world" in which humans find themselves to be within.

And my further argument regarding this is that the discovered math is what can be see to be evidence that the real world is perhaps a Reality Simulation [something which can be consciously experienced as real/a reality].

If ALL math were a human invention , then it would be more difficult to say that math is evidence of us existing within a creation.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #167

Post by bluegreenearth »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:52 pm
bluegreenearth wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:17 pmI understand your point. However, my concern is that we should be careful not to confuse the map for the territory. After an early explorer "discovered" a territory on Earth that wasn't previously known to exist, the "invention" of cartography allowed this territory to be depicted as a uniquely shaped polygon on a map in relation to the other known territories depicted as uniquely shaped polygons on the same map.
I'm with you so far. While few geographical territories have the shapes of regular polygons, maps are analogous to geometrical shapes in that they were invented to represent and study real-world things.

But why did you put the word "invention" pertaining to cartography in quotation marks? Are you disputing that cartography is invented?
They didn't subsequently point to the polygon on the map representing this previously unknown territory and claim the territory was invented rather than discovered.
I hope they didn't say the territory is invented. The territory wasn't invented of course, but the map that represents that territory is made by people. People invented cartography. In the same way people invented math to represent and create physical objects that have various shapes that people find useful or aesthetic.
Math is like the map and the physical properties of the material universe is the territory.
That's a good analogy! Math and cartography are both human inventions created to communicate and symbolize physical objects and places.

So it looks like you set out to dispute my position only to argue for my position. Why the resistance? For some strange reason people either hate the idea that math is invented and love the idea that it's discovered or both.
I didn't set out to dispute your position but to provide my interpretation of Brunumb's statement. It seems to me like you, me, and Brunumb acknowledge the difference between the map and the territory. So, I'm not quite sure what you are objecting to.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #168

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

William wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:11 pm [Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #166]

I think what we are trying to say is that when you are speaking about invented math you are speaking about things which are invented rather than discovered. That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented.
True, I wouldn't argue that math is invented by simply asserting that it's invented. Math is invented because when we look at the history of math, math develops alongside the development of civilization. Nobody, for example, argues that computers were discovered. So why contend that math is discovered? Also, there simply is nowhere for math to be prior to its alleged discovery, so its silly to claim that math is discovered.
Some math was discovered and that math has to do with what humans have not invented. The "real world" in which humans find themselves to be within.
Where was math prior to its discovery? No math-is-discovered advocate seems able to answer this very important question.
And my further argument regarding this is that the discovered math is what can be see to be evidence that the real world is perhaps a Reality Simulation [something which can be consciously experienced as real/a reality].
I don't see the connection between discovery of math and the world as a reality simulation. Why can't math be invented in a reality simulation?
If ALL math were a human invention , then it would be more difficult to say that math is evidence of us existing within a creation.
Well, then it's more difficult to say that math is evidence of our living in a "creation." Maybe math is invented, and there is no reality simulation that we live in. You seem to be arguing that since you think reality is simulated, then math must be discovered in order for you to be right about the simulation. In general, your logic goes like this:

I think A.
B is evidence for A.
Conclusion: B must be the case otherwise I'm wrong about A.

Of course, you could be wrong about A, and there is no B.

Allow me to conclude this post by pointing out that a realm for math waiting to be discovered is an idea cooked up by the Greek philosopher, Plato. It's obviously an idea that remains popular to this day.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #169

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #169]

Would you agree that math, as an invention, is a useful tool for making new discoveries?

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #170

Post by William »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #169]

I have placed my answer in a more appropriate thread. [Post#3]

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