Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Christ gives us that added boost to go beyond our limitations and achieve life and joy.

You make Christ sound like a turbocharger. I understand fully how turbos provide boost, how does Christ do so?

Obviously we don't know how all the gears turn, but we have faith that Christ can grant us eternal life and happiness free of pain. He offers it to us; all we need to do is accept the offer.

[brunumb]

Obviously we don't know how all the gears turn, but we have faith that Christ can grant us eternal life and happiness free of pain. He offers it to us; all we need to do is accept the offer.

Unfortunately, faith can lead us to believe things that are patently false just as easily as things that are true. When beliefs are inculcated without supporting evidence then all one has is faith. So many people in the world have different religious beliefs and rely on nothing more than faith that they have gone with the right one. Faith is obviously the most useless indicator of what is true.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #130]

I think you'll agree with me that much of what we need to do is beyond our ability to do. So let's just say we are "limited."

I'm not sure what 'much of what we need to do' means exactly. I think saying people are weak or strong isn't accurate. I've seen strong people and weak - humanity seems to run the gamut, but I think it depends on what we're actually talking about.

You are picky!

Definitely, but when it comes to a god, I have high expectations (especially if it or its followers say I need to worship it with my life).

As far as I'm concerned you can slap me around all you want as long as you're making sense.

Careful what you wish for

Admittedly, sometimes I only make sense to myself

[Compassionist]

Obviously we don't know how all the gears turn, but we have faith that Christ can grant us eternal life and happiness free of pain. He offers it to us; all we need to do is accept the offer.

Unfortunately, faith can lead us to believe things that are patently false just as easily as things that are true. When beliefs are inculcated without supporting evidence then all one has is faith. So many people in the world have different religious beliefs and rely on nothing more than faith that they have gone with the right one. Faith is obviously the most useless indicator of what is true.

I agree totally.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Obviously we don't know how all the gears turn, but we have faith that Christ can grant us eternal life and happiness free of pain. He offers it to us; all we need to do is accept the offer.

Unfortunately, faith can lead us to believe things that are patently false just as easily as things that are true.

The same might be said of reason. Reason can lead you to believe what is false. The UFO people, for example, have come up with tons of reasons to believe that ETs are abducting people. I think you agree with me that they are wrong, yet you don't abandon reason when it fails so badly.

So here's the solution to this problem: Understand faith as trust that is based on reason. Contrary to popular opinion, reason and faith are not mutually exclusive; you can have both of them. In fact, they often work together as reason provides the foundation for faith. So in the case of Christ, to have faith in him is to trust him because one has reason to trust him.

When beliefs are inculcated without supporting evidence then all one has is faith. So many people in the world have different religious beliefs and rely on nothing more than faith that they have gone with the right one.

I agree that faith based on no good reason is foolish. That's why I try to have good reasons to base my faith on.

Faith is obviously the most useless indicator of what is true.

Yes, and faith results from what is true, or at least faith can result from what is known or reasoned to be true.

[brunumb]

Reason can lead you to believe what is false. The UFO people, for example, have come up with tons of reasons to believe that ETs are abducting people. I think you agree with me that they are wrong, yet you don't abandon reason when it fails so badly.

They might have tons of reasons to believe, but are they based on evidence? Are their claims provably false? It seems to me that those people are also using faith as a basis for their beliefs. They are accepting claims as true in the absence of evidence. You can't simply reason something into existence.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Reason can lead you to believe what is false. The UFO people, for example, have come up with tons of reasons to believe that ETs are abducting people. I think you agree with me that they are wrong, yet you don't abandon reason when it fails so badly.

They might have tons of reasons to believe, but are they based on evidence?

Yes. Most of the evidence for UFOs is made up of eyewitness accounts and photographs.

Are their claims provably false?

I suppose that depends on the nature of the claims. A UFO abduction claim is probably not falsifiable, but that goes for many historical events.

It seems to me that those people are also using faith as a basis for their beliefs. They are accepting claims as true in the absence of evidence.

Faith is not necessarily accepting a claim as true in the absence of evidence or reason. Faith can be based on reason and evidence and often is. Like I've explained, faith and reason are not mutually exclusive; you can have both. Faith, if it is reason- and evidence-based, is the trust you place in the truth of a claim because you have reason to believe the claim.

You can't simply reason something into existence.

In a sense, mathematicians do it all the time. That's where circles and squares and lines came from; mathematicians came up with them using consistent logic.

[brunumb]

Faith is not necessarily accepting a claim as true in the absence of evidence or reason.

Yes it is. If you have facts you don't need faith. UFOlogists just have claims and unverified photographs and rely on faith in order to believe that they are truly of alien origin. The last line of Christian defense is doubling down on faith when all else has failed.

You can't simply reason something into existence.

In a sense, mathematicians do it all the time. That's where circles and squares and lines came from; mathematicians came up with them using consistent logic.

Circles, square and lines existed long before mathematicians. All they did was discover the rules and relationships pertaining to those things and give them names.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Faith is not necessarily accepting a claim as true in the absence of evidence or reason.

Yes it is. If you have facts you don't need faith. UFOlogists just have claims and unverified photographs and rely on faith in order to believe that they are truly of alien origin. The last line of Christian defense is doubling down on faith when all else has failed.

But you do need to have faith in order to act on whatever reason and evidence you have. Don't you judge the evidence for a claim to decide if it is good enough to believe the claim? I do, and if I think I can trust the reason and evidence, then I can act on the claim with confidence.

Now, I do agree that some Christians will "double down on faith when all else has failed." I don't. though. I only put my trust in what I have good reason to trust, and that includes Christ and his promises.

You can't simply reason something into existence.

In a sense, mathematicians do it all the time. That's where circles and squares and lines came from; mathematicians came up with them using consistent logic.

Circles, square and lines existed long before mathematicians.

Oh, and I see you have faith that there is some magical numberland that harbors mathematical principles and constructs just waiting to be discovered by mathematicians. Sorry, but there simply is no evidence for such a place, and your faith in it is blind faith.

All they did was discover the rules and relationships pertaining to those things and give them names.

There is a sort of discovery in discovery in mathematics, but it's just the unexpected logical consequences of what has been invented. Take the number π ≈ 3.14159, for example, the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. After circles were invented, and their diameters and circumferences were defined by mathematicians, people "discovered" that if you divide the measure of a circle's diameter into the measure of the circle's circumference, you get a number a bit larger than three. It's silly to believe that that number was lurking somewhere waiting for people to find it. Pi is just the result of what we humans invented and what we did not expect.

In any case, now we see that we can reason things into existence if by existence we mean human thought and reason.

[brunumb]

Pi is just the result of what we humans invented and what we did not expect.

We did not invent circles, squares or pi.

There is no evidence that biblical Jesus even existed, let alone that any promises he made can be counted on. That's where faith comes in and it is not much of a hook to hang your hat on.