Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?
As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.
One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.
Apologetics & Illness
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #101No, it's a statement about the sinner's natural inability to submit to God's authority and law.
"Sin doesn't exist until it is enacted," you said, a rather curious rejoinder because that corresponds exactly with what I had said (Post #98): "Through deciding for themselves whether or not X was good, Adam and Eve severed the communion with God that mankind had enjoyed." In that moment, Adam broke the covenant bond (relationship), thus separating God and man. That was the "enacted" moment you were looking for, consistent with the privation theory of evil.
I am not talking about "sins" in the sense of what we do, but rather "sin" in the sense of what we are, that is, human nature (cf. Romans 5:13). I am talking about original sin, for that's what I thought your question was about. "Just exactly how was sin brought into the world?" you asked, which seemed to hint at Romans 5:12-19 ("Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man," v. 12). That moment back in Eden is when sin entered the world; i.e., all humans from that moment on were sinners. That was now our natural state, because of that broken covenant bond, that separation of God and man. Just as there is darkness when light is removed, so there is sin when God is removed (covenantally). And there is only one way to reconcile man and God (who are separated), to restore that covenant bond—namely, Jesus Christ, "the last Adam." But that's a whole other theological ball of wax.
I know most people suppose that we become sinners when we sin, that we are pure and innocent until then, but that was the error of Pelagius. It is rather the other way around: We sin because we are sinners. We enter the world already separated from God because of that broken covenant; human nature apart from God is sinful, and so we naturally sin.
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #102[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #70]
Again, seems like humanity is being played by a supreme being
How are these ideals different?think of the human condition not so much as being based in guilt but in our nature.
I don't think that an accurate analogy. The mice don't seek out the house to be exterminated or annoy people, they're trying to survive after being infected with an intruder (mankind). Humanity was condemned from the get-go by being set up for failure in the Garden by someone they can't directly control.Just like mice infest houses seeking food and shelter only to be exterminated, humans experience suffering and death for what our natures compel us to do and what our natures make us.
Same end result so ultimately, the 'how we get there' doesn't matter IMO.So we really aren't being punished for what Eve and Adam did but suffer because we are like them.
Yet it's still there. God hasn't told anyone yet to absolutely remove it?Fortunately, many Bible versions these days explain the "troublesome" issues with Mark 16.
Again, seems like humanity is being played by a supreme being
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #103If the Biblical worldview was true, then billions of Christians would have gone to heaven forever and billions of non-Christians would have gone to hell forever. As it is false, no one will be going to heaven or hell. The Bible is not clear about whether non-human living things go to heaven or hell but as the Bible is false, they will not be going to heaven or hell either. Therefore, my conclusion is relevant to all living things. My conclusion that the Bible is false and unethical is based on evidence for the scientific worldview and the lack of evidence for the Biblical worldview. That's why it is relevant for all who actually exist. I have asked many Christians to prove the Bible to be true and ethical and none have proven the Bible to be true and ethical. I have prayed to God to prove to me that God is real and good but God never did. For the sake of the debate, if we assume that the Bible is true and humans die as a result of the disobedience of Adam and Eve, how is that ethical? Punishing Adam and Eve for disobeying God has some justification - although, if God had made Adam and Eve all-knowing and all-powerful, they would not have fallen for the deception by Satan. So, God is a flawed creator, to say the least. How is it ethical to punish all humans for the mistakes of Adam and Eve? I never asked to be conceived. I wish I were never conceived into this horrific and unjust world full of suffering, unfairness and deaths. Also, why punish all the other living things for the mistakes of Adam and Eve? That is totally atrocious. Hence, God is evil (imaginary or real). I have asked you to prove the Bible to be true and ethical but you have failed to. I have asked you to prove God to be real and good but you have failed to. I am not surprised that you have failed. Everyone else has also failed. This is because the Bible is false and unethical and the Biblical God is evil (imaginary or real). Please see: https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com Thank you.John Bauer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:33 pmIt's kind of weird that you never included any evidence. A member of this forum asked, "How do you explain all the good that people do?" In response, I volunteered to provide a controversial opinion, that of a Calvinist: "People don't do good" (and the biblical evidence for that claim). My intention was to highlight how the person's question was based on a debatable presupposition.Compassionist wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:08 pm No, my statement is based on actual evidence that people do lots of good.
You responded by saying, "Yes, people do lots of good. As do lots of other organisms." And that was it. No evidence, just a contrary assertion. It's kind of weird that someone like you would make a claim without including even a shred of evidence, even though it's supposedly based on evidence. Kind of weird, mate.
The fact you're not convinced about something is relevant to all people and other organisms? That's fairly narcissistic.Compassionist wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:12 pmIt's relevant to all who actually exist, i.e. people and other organisms. ... [snip rest]John Bauer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:28 pmThat may be true, but it is autobiographical and thus not relevant.Compassionist wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:19 am
I am not convinced that the Bible is ... [snip the rest]
Last edited by Compassionist on Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #104Did you study the websites I referred you to? Do you now understand how macroevolution is an evidence-based fact? Everything is not an opinion. There are opinions e.g. golf is the coolest sport. These are subjective and these are not factual. However, there are facts which are based on evidence e.g. my bike has two wheels. It does not have ten wheels, it does not have three wheels, it does not have a hundred wheels. It has only two wheels. That's not an opinion. It's an evidence-based fact. You are most welcome to share with us what God told you. I am very curious about the reality we exist in. I want to know everything. So, please do tell me what God told you. The reason I post on this and other forums is because I find the debates interesting. I also learn new things from my interactions with others. If you don't want to debate with me that's ok. I have not asked anyone to reply to my posts. Everyone is welcome to not read and not reply to my posts. I have thanked everyone who has replied to my posts regardless of whether their posts are evidence-based or faith-based. I am not trying to convert Christians out of Christianity. As I have said on other posts before, I respect everyone's human rights. One of these rights is the freedom to follow any or no religion. Just because I am secular it does not mean that I require everyone else to be secular like me. I am happy for you to be a Christian. I would be equally happy if you were a Jain or a Muslim or an Atheist or a Sikh or a Bahai, etc. I am omnibenevolent and want all the best for everyone.SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:23 pmAre you interested in my conclusions based on information gathered from a multitude of resources over years of study or not? Like I said everything is opinion, just like you have an opinion. There is no proof there is no soul. I believe God spoke to me because of what He said and how different it was from what I was taught and my thoughts. He explained many things that make sense. What doesn’t make sense is if you don’t believe in Yahweh or the Bible why waste time debating it? It would be like me being a hardcore golfer and going on a hockey fan site and asking them to prove why hockey is the best sport. It’s an opinion. I don’t go to agnostic sites looking for arguments. It’s a counterproductive waste of time.Compassionist wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:06 amPlease see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc and https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... reationist and https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... n-of-life/SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:36 pmThat book is no more proof to macro evolution than the Bible is to God. If I showed you a building made of bricks and wood, with a plumbing system and electricity and heating and cooling would you say it could have evolved from a cave? After time the metal from the earth formed copper strands and polymers encased it to provide a current for electrons to flow through. If a wind came and caused the roof to lift so it leaked, would that prove all the more it wasn’t designed and constructed? Can a cell phone evolve from an abacus? Our body is far more complex than a building. Our brains more than cell phones. Regardless, like I stated you have all of the answers you want. I don’t know you. I don’t know why you meditated. I don’t know why you fasted. I don’t know who you prayed to and why you didn’t get an answer when I did. That doesn’t mean I didn’t get answers. Let me ask you a question. What do you think happens when we die? Do you have thoughts on the pineal gland?Compassionist wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:36 pmYou are still evading your duty to prove your claims. I am not claiming to know the whole truth about reality - you are. I am an agnostic pacifist vegan egalitarian compassionist. I am not a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jain or a Buddhist or a Jew or a Bahai or a Daoist or Zoroastrian, etc. There are many ideas which can not be proven or disproven. For example, we can't prove or disprove whether we live in a computer simulation run by aliens. According to Hinduism, the world we perceive through our senses is not real but is an illusion called the Maya. This can't be proven or disproven either.SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:05 pmCan you prove God doesn’t exist? Can you disprove unclean spirits, or even that you have or have not a soul? If creation wasn’t in concert only chaos would prevail. The endocrine system keeps the body balanced. Any mechanical engineer can see how the body was designed. Show me how it evolved and you would get a Nobel prize. You can’t. Neither burden is satisfied. I told you how to make a “phone call” to the One who can answer you. If you really wanted to know instead of scoff then you would be fasting by now.Compassionist wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:34 pmYou can't prove your claims. Otherwise, you would have proven your claims. What you said on your latest reply is an attempt to evade the burden of proof which falls on anyone who makes claims about reality.SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:52 pmWhy would I spend hours trying to prove anything? I cannot merely post links to help you believe, no more than you can post links to make me doubt. If you are unable to see the intelligent design of creation then you aren’t looking hard enough. This is the Logos spoken of in John 1. It’s not Word it’s Logos. If I thought you were truly interested in learning I might spend the time but I’m convinced you just like to doubt. If you really, really want to know, fast for a day or so then sit in the dark. Concentrate on your heartbeat, then your pulse in your neck. Clear your mind until it floods with light so bright you think someone turned on the lights. Then in the still of all, in the quiet, in the dark, in the absence of thought, ask, “God, who are you?” Then if you wait long enough for an answer maybe He will speak to you as He did to me then you too will have more answers and less doubt. Everything is balance!Compassionist wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:31 pmCompassionist wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:34 amYou have made a lot of claims about reality. Please provide evidence to prove your claims. (My comments on your claims are in bold.) Thank you.SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:05 am [Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #1]
Firstly, is God omnipotent? I will answer a question with a question. Do you have a television remote? You can physically get up to change the channel if you want. However, a device was made available to adjust your will from afar. We were created to do God’s will. We are the hands and feet of Christ. We will share in the inheritance because we, the Church, are the physical embodiment of God of Earth.
Secondly, sickness is a result of imbalance. The Bible teaches us what to eat and how to live to sustain balance. It is an improper diet, stress and self abuse that prevents the body from repairing itself. Unclean spirits can manifest in a body that is out of balance. All creation is in concert. He started procreation in a way that eliminates the “weak” (genetically inferior) and promotes the strong. Man’s independence of God’s plan caused the same effect as when your cells no longer serve the body. They become rogue, reproducing and feeding out of control creating a toxic environment for the rest of the organism. Man has become to this planet what cancer is to the body. Can God bring a scalpel and cut away the undesirable? Yes, but what if you are the undesirable? He injected a cure that is slowly washing over His creation so that those cells that wish healing may be restored.
Thirdly, the word “evil” brought into question translates to many things. Perhaps in context “adversity” or “calamity” or “displeasure” could be utilized. The contrast of “peace” (rest and balance) is “adversity”. Adversity is what separates the weak from the strong to restore balance, bringing once again peace.Please prove claims you made in your post with evidence:SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:22 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #60]
Which specifically do you require proof of? Everything in the body works to achieve homeostasis (balance). I could expand exhaustively on this alone. The word evil is translated in Strongs words;
Strong's Number
H7451
Original Word
רעה רע
Transliterated Word
ra‛ râ‛âh
Phonetic Spelling
{rah} raw-aw'
Strong's Definition
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - {adversity} {affliction} {bad} {calamity} + displease ({-ure}) {distress} evil ({[-favouredness]} {man} {thing}) + {exceedingly} X {great} grief ({-vous}) {harm} {heavy} hurt ({-ful}) ill ({favoured}) + {mark} {mischief} ({-vous}) {misery} naught ({-ty}) {noisome} + not {please} sad ({-ly}) {sore} {sorrow} {trouble} {vex} wicked ({-ly} {-ness} {one}) worse (-st) {wretchedness} wrong. [Including feminine ra´ ah; as adjective or noun.]
1. God exists.
2. God created us to do God's Will.
3. We are the physical embodiment of the God of Earth.
4. Unclean spirits exist and can manifest in a body that is out of balance. There are many illnesses which are not caused by improper diet or stress or self-abuse. Please prove that clean and unclean spirits exist.
5. All creation is in concert.
6. He injected a cure that is slowly washing over His creation. Please remember that 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. How is that a cure?
7. Adversity is what separates the weak from the strong to restore balance. Why would God make some organisms weak and some organisms strong? How is that ethical? Adversity does not restore balance. It leads to suffering and death. Please see: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/iniquity.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 30851.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... itish_rule
https://www.newstatesman.com/economics/ ... eparations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://www.adaptt.org/about/the-kill-counter.html
https://www.globalissues.org/article/23 ... and-equity
I have fasted for up to 10 days many, many times. I have spent thousands of hours in meditation and prayers across the last 39 years. You do not know me and would be wise not to make assumptions.
Living things are clearly not the product of intelligent design. Our flaws show that we evolved. Please see https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/human- ... ent-design
I am not denying your experiences. Your experiences do not prove that the Bible is true and ethical and that the Biblical God is real and good. Your experiences could be self-hypnotic delusions but not necessarily so. I have tried praying to all the Gods of the top twelve religions. None of them answered any of my prayers. I fasted to please God but I don't know whether God was pleased or displeased by my fasting. I lost a lot of weight. My commitment is to truth and ethics. That's why I am an agnostic pacifist vegan egalitarian compassionist.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
When living things die the bodies decompose unless frozen in a freezer. Many religions claim that we are immortal souls and if you believe in that particular religion e.g. Christianity or Islam, you go to heaven. Other religions e.g. Hinduism and Jainism claim that we are immortal souls who reincarnate based on our Karma. I am not convinced that any of the religions are true. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_gland if you want to learn about the pineal gland. My thoughts on the pineal gland are as follows: we need it to produce melatonin.
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #105[Replying to Compassionist in post #105]
[Hi Compassionist. It would be helpful if you (and others) could reply without quoting an entire post that already contains a large number of exchanges as they end up being stretched right out and unreadable anyway.]
[Hi Compassionist. It would be helpful if you (and others) could reply without quoting an entire post that already contains a large number of exchanges as they end up being stretched right out and unreadable anyway.]
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #106Thanks for letting me know. I will do that in the future.brunumb wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:48 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #105]
[Hi Compassionist. It would be helpful if you (and others) could reply without quoting an entire post that already contains a large number of exchanges as they end up being stretched right out and unreadable anyway.]
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #107[[url=./viewtopic.php?p=1029403#p1029403]Replying to Compassionist in post #105[/url]]
I have read countless arguments about evolution. Really....countless. It all comes down to the same reality; nobody knows. Whether we want to believe it or not, unless we were here watching macro evolution unfold for 4 billion years then all we have is an educated guess on what happened. Educated being used loosely. There has been many whistle blowers stating how when something contradicts status quo it eliminated. We all argue from a point of presupposition. Those who dedicate their lives seeking missing links, find them, whether they are true or false. The community that validates their claims has spent their time and careers doing the same thing. Confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance are not exclusive to the “religious”. You directed me to the conclusions of others. We both rely on faith, I on God, and you on academia. I never stated Yahweh never did anything we wouldn’t find benevolent. The point is if I drew a picture, I should decide what happens to it. Whether I hang it on the wall or burn it, it’s my picture. That’s the point. From my personal observations what some call evil I see mercy. If a population grows out of control and ends up in starvation, that’s not God’s fault. Allowing them to die to regain balance is a mercy to those not yet born. When we intervene and feed them, we continue the cycle of starvation. I’m sure the moms of the deer aren’t happy their fawns get eaten by wolves, but that’s how their herd stays strong. How does the human herd stay strong with no natural enemies, medicine to prolong the diseased and the weak ruling the strong because of the false power of money? We are in chaos because lack of balance.
I have read countless arguments about evolution. Really....countless. It all comes down to the same reality; nobody knows. Whether we want to believe it or not, unless we were here watching macro evolution unfold for 4 billion years then all we have is an educated guess on what happened. Educated being used loosely. There has been many whistle blowers stating how when something contradicts status quo it eliminated. We all argue from a point of presupposition. Those who dedicate their lives seeking missing links, find them, whether they are true or false. The community that validates their claims has spent their time and careers doing the same thing. Confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance are not exclusive to the “religious”. You directed me to the conclusions of others. We both rely on faith, I on God, and you on academia. I never stated Yahweh never did anything we wouldn’t find benevolent. The point is if I drew a picture, I should decide what happens to it. Whether I hang it on the wall or burn it, it’s my picture. That’s the point. From my personal observations what some call evil I see mercy. If a population grows out of control and ends up in starvation, that’s not God’s fault. Allowing them to die to regain balance is a mercy to those not yet born. When we intervene and feed them, we continue the cycle of starvation. I’m sure the moms of the deer aren’t happy their fawns get eaten by wolves, but that’s how their herd stays strong. How does the human herd stay strong with no natural enemies, medicine to prolong the diseased and the weak ruling the strong because of the false power of money? We are in chaos because lack of balance.
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #108Rather than reading arguments it would have been more beneficial if you had actually studied the theory of evolution. It is firmly established as far as scientific theories go and has not been falsified. Science relies on evidence rather than arguments. That hasn't stopped creationist organisations from muddying the waters by inventing alternative scenarios that the gullible will swallow even when they have no supporting evidence. We may not know how it all started (abiogenesis) as yet, but evolution through natural selection is firmly established. It would be interesting to hear about some of those many whistleblowers you mentioned and what contradictory aspects of evolution have been suppressed.SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:56 pm I have read countless arguments about evolution. Really....countless. It all comes down to the same reality; nobody knows. Whether we want to believe it or not, unless we were here watching macro evolution unfold for 4 billion years then all we have is an educated guess on what happened. Educated being used loosely. There has been many whistle blowers stating how when something contradicts status quo it eliminated.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #109I've mentioned this before, but if it's worth the effort to you to prove it to yourself, the data are available to you. GenBank is a massive database of DNA sequences, containing just shy of a billion entries from bacteria to bananas to blue whales. If you're willing to learn the basics of phylogenetic analysis, that database offers orders of magnitude more information (and corresponding certainty) than all of the fossils ever found. One open-access (free) textbook is available here (the publisher's website is in German, but the book is English; click on "Open access PDF" to see the download button).SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:56 pmI have read countless arguments about evolution. Really....countless. It all comes down to the same reality; nobody knows. Whether we want to believe it or not, unless we were here watching macro evolution unfold for 4 billion years then all we have is an educated guess on what happened. Educated being used loosely.
If you're willing to do a little legwork, you can be one of the ones that knows and you'll never have to take anyone else's word for it again.
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Re: Apologetics & Illness
Post #110If God was real and good, God would have prevented all suffering, unfairness and deaths. All beings could have been forever happy. Only suffering, unfairness and deaths are guaranteed. We are not a picture. Sentient biological organisms suffer and die. That's why we have the right to hold God accountable. An omniscient and omnipotent being is always omniculpable. Therefore, God is evil (imaginary or real).SeekerofTruth wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:56 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #105]
I have read countless arguments about evolution. Really....countless. It all comes down to the same reality; nobody knows. Whether we want to believe it or not, unless we were here watching macro evolution unfold for 4 billion years then all we have is an educated guess on what happened. Educated being used loosely. There has been many whistle blowers stating how when something contradicts status quo it eliminated. We all argue from a point of presupposition. Those who dedicate their lives seeking missing links, find them, whether they are true or false. The community that validates their claims has spent their time and careers doing the same thing. Confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance are not exclusive to the “religious”. You directed me to the conclusions of others. We both rely on faith, I on God, and you on academia. I never stated Yahweh never did anything we wouldn’t find benevolent. The point is if I drew a picture, I should decide what happens to it. Whether I hang it on the wall or burn it, it’s my picture. That’s the point. From my personal observations what some call evil I see mercy. If a population grows out of control and ends up in starvation, that’s not God’s fault. Allowing them to die to regain balance is a mercy to those not yet born. When we intervene and feed them, we continue the cycle of starvation. I’m sure the moms of the deer aren’t happy their fawns get eaten by wolves, but that’s how their herd stays strong. How does the human herd stay strong with no natural enemies, medicine to prolong the diseased and the weak ruling the strong because of the false power of money? We are in chaos because lack of balance.