Apologetics & Illness

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Paul of Tarsus
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Apologetics & Illness

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #151

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Another possibility is that God never told those who claim to speak for him that he would do away with the world's troubles, and that's why those troubles never go away.
A much more reasonable probability is that there is no God to tell anybody anything. This would also explain why God never resolves any troubles. There is no God to do so. This is the most obvious reason and not surprisingly doesn't require any complex explanations as to why the world functions as if there is no God.


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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #152

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:49 pm Is there any scientific evidence that supports pi didn't always exist and was invented rather than discovered?
Do we know who invented pi? If I was going to invent it I would have made it easier to remember, like 10.
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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #153

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Tcg wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:59 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Another possibility is that God never told those who claim to speak for him that he would do away with the world's troubles, and that's why those troubles never go away.
A much more reasonable probability is that there is no God to tell anybody anything.
That is a possibility although it's debatable as to how reasonable it may be. For the theist three germane possibilities include:

1. God exists but cannot reveal prophecies to anybody.
2. God exists but will not or just does not reveal prophecies to anybody.
3. God exists but many people claim falsely to speak for him and make errant predictions.

Possibility 3 is a common apologetic, but I'm sure that many theists might accept 1 or 2.
This would also explain why God never resolves any troubles. There is no God to do so. This is the most obvious reason and not surprisingly doesn't require any complex explanations as to why the world functions as if there is no God.


You are making the same mistake Paul made when he wrote in Romans 1:20 (NRSV):
Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse...
Paul is telling us here that since it's obvious to him that God exists, then God exists. You are saying that since it's obvious to you that God does not exist, then he doesn't exist. In general, the fallacy might go like this:

Statement A is obviously true to me.
Conclusion: Statement A must then be true.

Most often we rely on the premise of this argument to reach the conclusion, but we run into trouble when A is not obviously true to others. It's not very convincing to claim that something is true because its truth is obvious to you.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #154

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

bluegreenearth wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:18 pmI understood Brunumb's statement about "Pi" to mean it was the consistently observed physical relationship between the circumference of any circular-shaped material thing to the diameter of that circular-shaped material thing that was discovered, and "Pi" is just the symbolic and linguistic representation of that discovery.
At best, any such measurements of circular objects' diameters and circumferences would result in rough approximations of π. It is impossible to determine π using physical measurements because π is an irrational number which is to say that it cannot be expressed as the ratio of two integers. π is 3.14159... where the digits to the right of the decimal do not repeat and go on without limit. That's why π cannot be "discovered" using physical measurements. That π is an irrational number and approximations of its value were determined by mathematicians using the man-made rules and techniques of mathematics. One such method is to add the lengths of the sides of polygons with sides of equal length (pentagons, hexagons, etc.) inscribed in a circle. As the number of sides increases and approaches infinity, the sum of the lengths of the sides of the polygons inscribed in the circle approach the length of the circle's circumference. Divide the diameter of the circle into that infinite sum, and the result is π.

Another reason physical measurements cannot give us the value of π is because the "real" world is a messy place. No object can be perfectly circular because it is three-dimensional and made up of bumpy atoms with electrons spinning around the nuclei. A circle, by contrast, is an infinite set of points on a two-dimensional plane wherein each point is equidistant from a central point on the plane. A circle is perfectly neat. You won't find them in the real world. Generally, the geometric shapes and other constructs made up by mathematicians are at best approximations of physical systems. That's why physicists apply their math to "ideal" physical systems. There are no ideals in the physical world.

Anyway, why is it so important to you that math be "discovered"? Is it part of a philosophy you like?

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #155

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

William wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:49 pmIs there any scientific evidence that supports pi didn't always exist and was invented rather than discovered?
The mathematicians in classical Greece were some of the first people to use mathematical techniques to determine the value of π. It's important to understand that circles were invented. The fact that the number π is the value of the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is merely a byproduct of a circle's abstract structure and was not expected when circles were invented.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #156

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:03 pm It's important to understand that circles were invented.
Are you saying that circles did not exist before they were invented? And, who invented them?
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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #157

Post by William »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:03 pm
William wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:49 pmIs there any scientific evidence that supports pi didn't always exist and was invented rather than discovered?
The mathematicians in classical Greece were some of the first people to use mathematical techniques to determine the value of π. It's important to understand that circles were invented. The fact that the number π is the value of the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is merely a byproduct of a circle's abstract structure and was not expected when circles were invented.
Considering the idea that circles are two dimensional objects one could argue that they were invented (and thus Pi also) and do not occur anywhere in nature. We know that the sun and moon and earth etc are circular - certainly circular enough to be regarded as circles, but perhaps you mean "perfect circles"?

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #158

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:14 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:03 pm It's important to understand that circles were invented.
Are you saying that circles did not exist before they were invented?
Yes, of course. Diesel engines did not exist before they were invented either.
And, who invented them?
That's a great question. If you asked the Greeks, they may have told you that the Egyptians invented circles although I'm a bit skeptical about that claim. Circles were probably invented somewhere in Mesopotamia for the purpose of reckoning time which was important when agriculture came into vogue. If you plant crops, then you need to know what time of the year it is.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #159

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

William wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:53 pmConsidering the idea that circles are two dimensional objects one could argue that they were invented (and thus Pi also) and do not occur anywhere in nature. We know that the sun and moon and earth etc are circular - certainly circular enough to be regarded as circles, but perhaps you mean "perfect circles"?
The word "circle" is often used loosely. Anything that has the shape of a round, closed curve might be described as a circle. Celestial objects like planets have circular cross-sections which give planets the shape of spheres. They are not perfectly spherical, though, because they bulge around their equators. Of course, all you need to do is look around you to see that earth's surface is very rough and obviously not an infinite set of points equidistant from a center point which is what a sphere is. So circles and spheres and other geometric constructions are just ideas people came up with to describe the shapes of physical objects.

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Re: Apologetics & Illness

Post #160

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:28 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:14 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:03 pm It's important to understand that circles were invented.
Are you saying that circles did not exist before they were invented?
Yes, of course. Diesel engines did not exist before they were invented either.
I wonder what humans did for eyesight before someone invented circles?

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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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