Please prove the Bible to be true and ethical

[Compassionist]

I am not here to persuade anyone to leave Christianity. I have met and spoken with many Christians. Many of them say that the Bible is totally true and ethical. "He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” - Mark 16:15 - 18, The Bible (New International Version). Illnesses are not caused by demons. Christians don't miraculously become fluent in other languages without having to learn them like the non-Christians. They are certainly not immune to deadly poison. There are 2,173,180,000 Christians on Earth currently. If they were to drink deadly poison and be unharmed that would be a great demonstration of the claims of the Bible but I guarantee that they will die if they were to drink a lethal dose of poison. This is because the Bible is false and unethical. Faith healings are scams. Please see

"On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[a] its enemies,

as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." - Joshua 10:12-13, The Bible (New International Version). If this event truly happened, why is there no evidence for it? Why aren't there any historical records of the Sun standing still and the Moon standing still outside the Bible? This is how our Sun and our planet and the other planets move through the space: If the Sun and the Moon stood still, how did that impact on the Earth and the other planets and moons, etc.? God is claimed to be love by the Bible. "And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." - 1 John 4:16, The Bible (New International Version). How is it loving of God to allow a group of people to kill another group of people? The Godly people should be the most loving people but they clearly are not loving. Given God's many atrocities, the Biblical God is evil (imaginary or real). Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com Thank you.

"Ethics, too, are nothing but reverence for life. This is what gives me the fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, promoting, and enhancing life, and that destroying, injuring, and limiting life are evil." - Albert Schweitzer, "Civilization and Ethics", 1949. The Biblical God has harmed many living things. Therefore, the Biblical God is evil (imaginary or real).

For the sake of the debate, if we assume that the Bible is true and humans die as a result of the disobedience of Adam and Eve, how is that ethical? Punishing Adam and Eve for disobeying God has some justification - although, if God had made Adam and Eve all-knowing and all-powerful, they would not have fallen for the deception by Satan. So, God is a flawed creator, to say the least. How is it ethical to punish all humans for the mistakes of Adam and Eve? I never asked to be conceived. I wish I were never conceived into this horrific and unjust world full of suffering, unfairness and deaths. Also, why punish all the other living things for the mistakes of Adam and Eve? That is totally atrocious. Hence, God is evil (imaginary or real).

[Difflugia]

...
I don't think demons are real. What do you think a demon is?

Because I don’t really know at the moment, I can’t tell they don’t exists or don’t have any effect.

How can you say they are not real, if you don’t even know what they are?

If you can't even define it in an abstract sense, then saying that it's real is meaningless.

At a minimum, demons are traditionally considered to be sentient. There are no sentient agents of disease. If I need to qualify that statement at all ("you can't prove a negative!"), then there are no sentient agents of disease to the same level of certainty that there are no winged zebras or body thetans.

[Compassionist]

....
Why do you think everyone is punished because of Adam and Eve?

Genesis 3, The Bible (New International Version)

Sorry, there doesn’t seem to be punishment for all.

If God is real and good, why didn't God make Adam and Eve and all the angels and other living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent? That would have prevented all suffering, unfairness and deaths. Instead, God makes Adam and Eve gullible and punishes them.

If Adam and Eve would have been gullible, they would have believed God.

I have no reason to believe things would be any better if they would be more able.

How is it loving to punish Eve and all women with severe childbearing pain?

I don’t see reason to think all women were punished. The story speaks only about Eve in this case.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Consequenly all living things were cast out of heaven and sent to Earth to suffer and die. Humans and other organisms have been suffering and dying for a long time on Earth. If Adam and Eve were made all-knowing and all-powerful by God, then they would not feel tempted to know more. An all-knowing person already knows everything so they can't feel the temptation to learn more. All human women suffer during childbirth. According to the Bible severe childbirth pain is God's punishment to Eve and all her daughters.

[John Bauer]

If you can't even define it in an abstract sense, then saying that it's real is meaningless.

That was beautiful. I just want to leave that there and admire it for a while.

[John Bauer]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #59]

The burden of proof is on the claimant that something exists.

It applies to more than just claims of existence. For instance, the burden of proof also applies to claims of causality—including your claim that "illnesses are not caused by demons." In essence, the burden of proof is one's epistemic duty to expose the argument from which a conclusion is drawn.

I did not claim that demons exist.

I am well aware of that. You claimed that illnesses are not caused by demons, a claim that is without any evidence.

The Bible is a book which makes many claims about what exists. It claims that God exists. It claims that the Devil exists. It claims that angels and demons exist. It claims that demons cause illnesses. It claims that Jesus and his followers healed people by casting out demons. So, the burden of proof is on the writers of the Bible and the followers of the Bible to prove that it is telling the truth.

Sure, if someone puts forward such a claim. But I don't think anyone has. The only thing we are dealing with here is your claim, pulled from the Gish Gallop of your original post.

Just because it is impossible to prove the non-existence of anything, it does not mean that Gods, angels, demons, yetis, fairies, etc. exist.

No doubt. I'm fully aware of the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, supposing something is true (exists) unless someone can prove it's false (does not exist). None of this, however, has anything to do with your claim, which you seem to desperately wish people would disregard.

The medical journals and textbooks show that the true cause of illnesses are not demons ...

You already said this, and I responded to it. Please deal with my response (Post #57), specifically point #4 and the logical fallacy being identified.

The scientists who do the research search for the causes of illnesses.

And that search is conducted on a framework of methodological naturalism, which deals only with physical causes for physical states. As I said, scientific explanations don't even look beyond the physical; they "ignore the question of demons altogether." Sound familiar? It should, because I've said this many times now. Again, this is dealt with in detail under point #4 in my previous Post #57, which you have not addressed.

If Gods, demons, angels, fairies, etc. were the causes of illnesses they would have shown up in the experiments and tests.

Only if they represented physical causes, for that's the only thing scientists are looking for.

It is because these things do not exist that they don't show up in any of the data gathered by the scientists.

So then, if I have understood you correctly, the evidence for your claim that "illnesses are not caused by demons" is that demons "do not exist"?

My X-rays, CT and MRI scans prove that I am not possessed by demons or fairies or angels, etc.

I already addressed this. See my previous Post #57, specifically point #5.

You keep dismissing these pieces of evidence I have cited as 'not evidence' but they are evidence of the true causal agents of illnesses.

First, they are not evidence for your specific claim (that "illnesses are not caused by demons") because the evidence they provide do not support it.

Second, these are scientific sources; they deal with what is more probable than not (because our knowledge of the natural world comes through observation, and those observations are flawed and subject to bias and interpretation and experimental uncertainty). The category of "true" belongs to the domain of philosophy (e.g., correspondence theory of truth). What your medical textbooks and journals provide is evidence for the physical causes of illnesses.

My claim that illnesses are not caused by demons are based on the fact that illnesses are not caused by demons.

So your claim is based on your claim. I can't believe you just posted that in public. It's like a Christian who says, "My claim that the Bible is true is based on the fact that the Bible is true."

Is it indeed a fact that illnesses are not caused by demons? So you say, but where is the evidence which supports this? Please deal with the criticisms (particularly point #4 in Post #57).

We know the true causes of illnesses. They are listed in medical books and journals. I have asked you to read the medical books and journals so you can see for yourself. I have even offered you the opportunity to see my X-rays, CT and MRI scans. I have nothing more to say on this matter.

Okay. Your reputation, your call.

The burden of proof is on you to prove the Bible to be true and ethical. You have not done so.

When it comes to your claim that illnesses are not caused by demons, I do not shoulder any burden of proof. The claim is yours, the burden is yours.

[1213]

...all living things were cast out of heaven and sent to Earth to suffer and die. Humans and other organisms have been suffering and dying for a long time on Earth. If Adam and Eve were made all-knowing and all-powerful by God, then they would not feel tempted to know more. An all-knowing person already knows everything so they can't feel the temptation to learn more...

Knowing things was not really the problem. If it would have been only about knowledge, they could have asked anything directly from God.

All human women suffer during childbirth. According to the Bible severe childbirth pain is God's punishment to Eve and all her daughters.

By what I know, all women don’t suffer during childbirth.

[1213]

...At a minimum, demons are traditionally considered to be sentient. There are no sentient agents of disease. ...

Ok, I accept that as your belief. I have no reason to convince you to believe there are demons involved, all though I think it is possible.

[brunumb]

All human women suffer during childbirth. According to the Bible severe childbirth pain is God's punishment to Eve and all her daughters.

By what I know, all women don’t suffer during childbirth.

So God is playing favourites, just like having his chosen people. This is not a god worthy of worship.

[1213]

...So God is playing favourites, just like having his chosen people....

Sorry, I don’t see any reason to believe so. All good things are promised for all people, but obviously only few want to be loyal to God. And the promises are for those who remain loyal.

[Diagoras]

One cannot expect medical textbooks and journals to talk about demons, however, because they deal with scientific subject matters but demons are a religious subject matter.

I’m curious how one might conclusively delineate between the two subject matters. There are passages in the bible that deal with phenomena known and explored by science: earthquakes, for example. How then can you make this claim about demons? What particular property do they possess that excludes them from ‘scientific matters’?

Yes, medical textbooks and journals do not say anything about demons when looking at the causes of disease—but then nobody could rationally expect them to in the first place, as they're concerned with scientific subject matter and demons don't qualify.

What are the ‘qualifications’ for scientific subject matter?

I told you what kind of evidence you could provide; for example, a scientific paper that formulates and tests a relevant hypothesis and draws a conclusion in which demons are ruled out as a cause of illness. That's the kind of evidence needed for the claim, "Illnesses are not caused by demons."

If demons are ‘disqualified’ from scientific study, why would such a paper be seen as providing any worthwhile evidence? You appear to want to have it both ways.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to John Bauer in post #65]
This thread is for proving the Bible to be true and ethical. You have not proven the Bible to be true and ethical. Demons don't exist. So, illnesses can't be caused by demons. It is impossible to prove the non-existence of anything but that does not mean that which does not exist actually exits. Tooth fairies don't exist but it is impossible to prove that they don't exist. We already know the causes of many illnesses and they are listed in medical books and journals. If illnesses were caused by demons, the medical books and journals would have said so. The fact that you keep dismissing it does not make demons the cause of illnesses.

"The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good." - Psalm 14:1, The Bible (New International Version). This Bible verse is clearly false because there are lots of secular people who have done lots of good deeds and continue to do good deeds. The Bible is full of lots of other lies, too. If you choose to turn a blind eye to them, that's up to you. The Bible is false and unethical. The Biblical God is evil (imaginary or real). Please see: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com and https://www.evilbible.com Thank you.