Christians, how do you explain 'natural' evil?

[Rational Atheist]

I am fairly sure that most Christians on here are aware of the infamous 'Problem of Evil.' This common objection to the existence of God is typically answered by Christians claiming that evil must exist in the world in order for humans to have free will to choose between good and evil, and that while God does not want evil to exist, his desire for humans to have free will is stronger than his desire for evil not to exist. Fair enough (though I don't think free will exists, but that's another discussion). But how do you explain 'natural' evil i.e. evil that has nothing to do with human actions? Some examples of natural evil are: the billions of sentient animals that have suffered incredible pain and agony over the course of hundreds of millions of years, the horrendous and crippling diseases that both humans and animals have suffered from throughout all of history, and the violent weather that kills many thousands of humans and non-humans every year. How are these types of evils compatible with the existence of an all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful god who is supposedly not sadistic at all? It seems to me that these types of evils refute the existence of an all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful god. If a god exists, he either doesn't know that all these things occur, does not have the ability to stop them, or he has a sadistic streak and for some reason wants the majority of his creations to suffer immensely. Or (and this is the simplest and most reasonable explanation IMO), a god simply doesn't exist.

So, my debate question is, how do you, if you believe in an all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful God, resolve the problem of natural evils?

[Hawkins]

So, my debate question is, how do you, if you believe in an all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful God, resolve the problem of natural evils?

Freewill basically means you have the ability to oppose God. Or else you are more of a robot. Evil is just the way how one opposes a God who's sin incompatible. As a result of freewill, human behavior (as well as angel behavior) is like a normal distribution in terms of mathematical statistics and probabilities. Law is for God to make a cut onto the bell shape normal distribution to say that, "I can only bear with this portion of people in an eternity". Earth on other hand acts as a filter to an aquarium which is Heaven. The functionality of a filter is to secure the cleanness of an aquarium. The functionality of earth is the same, which is to secure the cleanness of Heaven. Earth is a filter acting as the final stage where evil can stay. Heaven will be free of the presence of evil.

God's job is to deal with evil once and for all through a lawful process known us the Final Judgment, through which evil as a whole will be destroyed to secure a clean eternity we call Heaven.
Earth is thus a place for evil to be displayed in order to be completely destroyed by Law. Law on the other hand can only apply after facts. Law can only destroy when evil is displayed. Law cannot apply if evil is not exposed openly. So just make sure that you are not filtered out by this huge filter we call earth.

[Miles]

I have an excellent understanding (grasp) of "moral choice," ...

Well then you have free will since the capacity to understand the notion that is what free will *is*.

Your "notion" being "moral choice" I'm guessing.

But regarding the character of free will, a few definitions to see if they mention free will as being "moral choice," per your assertion.

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free will
/ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun: free will; noun: freewill
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Source: Oxford Languages
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Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.
Source Wikipedia:
1 Omoregie, J. (2015). Freewill: The degree of freedom within. UK: Author House
2 Hegeler, Edward C. (1910). The Monist, Vol. 20. Open Court. p. 369.

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free will noun

Definition of free will
1 : voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
Source: Merriam-Webster

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free will
noun
free and independent choice; voluntary decision:
Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
Source: dictionary.com
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Free will, in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints.
Source: Encyclopaedia Britannica

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free will in American English
1. freedom of decision or of choice between alternatives
2.
a. the freedom of the will to choose a course of action without external coercion but in accordance with the ideals or moral outlook of the individual
b. the doctrine that people have such freedom
Source: collinsdictionary.com

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free will
noun [ U ]
us
/ˌfriː ˈwɪl/ uk
/ˌfriː ˈwɪl/
the ability to decide what to do independently of any outside influence:
Source: Cambridge Dictionary

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free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will.
Source: thefreedictionary.com

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Free will
The ability to have done differently
Source: Self

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So, anything about moral choice? Nope. Not a one. Of course if you have an unbiased definition that says free will only deals with moral choices I'm all ears.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

So, anything about moral choice? Nope. Not a one. Of course if you have an unbiased definition that says free will only deals with moral choices I'm all ears.


.

I do believe I have adressed this point.
viewtopic.php?p=1029635#p1029635

Go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, PREDESTINATION and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[William]

It's a result of the fall. When sin entered the earth, it affected all of creation, not just humankind. Paul writes of it in his letter to the Romans:

Here we go again. Let's blame it all on the fall and sin entering the world. Something magical happened and changed everything even though sin is not an entity and cannot enter anywhere. It is a mantra. Pure rhetoric that might cause the indoctrinated to nod their heads knowingly and in agreement but it is a Claytons answer. That is, the answer you give when you don't have an answer. As for Paul, well he is entitled to his opinions, but opinions are not facts.

The thing is, this is what most Christians believe - the fundamental story of the garden as being what actually happened. They seem to resist the idea that it is just a story - just mythology - and poorly presented/open to all sorts of conjecture - and the story is followed by other stories all centered around the idea that the garden story is for real.

When one come to full realization of this, one is less interested in wasting time arguing with the indoctrinated as there is no value in doing so. It is irrational to do so...

[brunumb]

Earth is a filter acting as the final stage where evil can stay. Heaven will be free of the presence of evil.

Ignoring the rest of your rhetoric, the only way for that to happen is to deny people their human nature and turn them into robots.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Rational Atheist in post #31]

I'm not sure how you are defining 'evil', but...

There is death (and sin/error) in the flesh and in the world; hence we get sick and we die. Adam is the one who subjected the world and his offspring and all life in the world TO Death. This is not how God created things - and in the Kingdom (which will be upon the earth) - these things will not be an issue. At some point there will be no more sin or death or mourning. In the meantime, sin and death entered the world as a consequence of the choice that Adam made (for himself; and for his offspring; and for the world that had been given to him to govern).


**

Of course there are also many illnesses and diseases that are our own doing. Cancers and diseases caused by carcinogens that we ingest or are exposed to (due to man's ignorance or selfishness/greed/short-sightedness). Chernobyl comes to mind as something obvious (actually my son mentioned it), but there are smaller things as well that we may not even think about. Animals are exposed to what we put in the world as well. And man can also cause death (and disease; illness) by what might have seemed to be natural disasters, but are actually caused or made significantly worse by something man has done to the environment (with or without realizing the possible effects of their actions). Such as the Dust Bowl. https://www.thebalance.com/what-was-the ... ts-3305689




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Miles]

So, anything about moral choice? Nope. Not a one. Of course if you have an unbiased definition that says free will only deals with moral choices I'm all ears.


.

I do believe I have adressed this point.
viewtopic.php?p=1029635#p1029635

Really?? I ask because you never mention "free will" in the entire post.

Tell you what, because you've failed to produce "an unbiased definition that says free will only deals with moral choices" I no longer care what you may think "free will" means because I don't believe you actually know, or you can't deal with its faults.

Have a good day.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

The thing is, this is what most Christians believe - the fundamental story of the garden as being what actually happened.

I for one do indeed believe that the Genesis account of contains a historically accurate account of real events. It is important this be so in the Christian faith as it explains that the need for redemption through Christ arose.


JW

[William]

It's a result of the fall. When sin entered the earth, it affected all of creation, not just humankind. Paul writes of it in his letter to the Romans:

Here we go again. Let's blame it all on the fall and sin entering the world. Something magical happened and changed everything even though sin is not an entity and cannot enter anywhere. It is a mantra. Pure rhetoric that might cause the indoctrinated to nod their heads knowingly and in agreement but it is a Claytons answer. That is, the answer you give when you don't have an answer. As for Paul, well he is entitled to his opinions, but opinions are not facts.

The thing is, this is what most Christians believe - the fundamental story of the garden as being what actually happened. They seem to resist the idea that it is just a story - just mythology - and poorly presented/open to all sorts of conjecture - and the story is followed by other stories all centered around the idea that the garden story is for real.

When one come to full realization of this, one is less interested in wasting time arguing with the indoctrinated as there is no value in doing so. It is irrational to do so...

I for one do indeed believe that the Genesis account of contains a historically accurate account of real events. It is important this be so in the Christian faith as it explains that the need for redemption through Christ arose.

The thing is, this is what most Christians believe - the fundamental story of the garden as being what actually happened. They seem to resist the idea that it is just a story - just mythology - and poorly presented/open to all sorts of conjecture - and the story is followed by other stories all centered around the idea that the garden story is for real.

When one comes to full realization of this, one is less interested in wasting time arguing with the indoctrinated as there is no value in doing so. It is irrational to do so...

[William]

Can an omnipotent God that made digestive systems of animals out of nothing not see them adapt to His will?

Can an omnipotent God that made animals adapt to His will not erase the evil in people without drowning them all?

Of course he could. but did he? Nope! And why would god change lettuce and spinach eating lions and tigers into obligate carnivores? Did they some how displease him?
Bad kitty. Bad! Bad! Bad!


It's all too silly.


.

It is all too silly and for that, it is time to grow up and put aside the stories. I understand the natural process involved with the evolution of religion as a means of explaining the hitherto unknown as easily as I understand the natural process involved with the evolution of science as a means of slowly and surely making the unknown known.

One unfortunate side effect if said process is that religion shaped politics [capitalisms in this case] and that is what science has to deal with. The overflow [in terms of human numbers] into the real world of old world imaginings is also preventing the ability of science to move us into a more proactive realization that we can do good things with this knowledge in spite of Middle Eastern Mythology presenting grim images of 'a god' and of nature - niether which I personally have any need to believe in as the truth of the matter.

But if how I see nature determines how I therefore see any idea of a Creator [of this reality experience] then I had best not put shadows onto nature.

I mean - I know she can appear to be mean and all that, but there is this really tender loving side too...don't we all think so?