What Exactly Is Your Problem With Christianity?

[Benson]

Lots of people say Christians "Are trying to jam religion and God down our throats." Yes, I know how this is a figure of speech. But, I doubt any of these people can say how this actually happens. Nobody is forcing them to do anything about God or religion. Why the complaint?

To help non Believers in God to better understand why Christianity is good for them, here are some reasons:

1.) If you want to have a better life, obey God. Jesus says those who obey His Commands will live better and longer. Such as getting everything they need for life, and living forever.

2.) If you give yourself completely to God, you will not go to Hell.

3.) If you belong to God, you will feel better.

4.) If you become a Christian, you can even accidentally believe the wrong Theology, but as long as you state Jesus is God and He died for you, you can still go to Heaven.

5.) After you become a Christian, you will not go to Hell for not understanding The Bible, because no person alive understands The Bible. That is why every part of The Bible is argued about. After you die, then you will understand everything about it.

6.) If you become a Christian, you will always have someone important to talk to who lives you.

7.) Finally, when you are a Christian, you will probably save a lot of money on useless things. Maybe.

[nobspeople]

I find modern Christianity a disgusting and vile, barbaric ritualization that has no place in society that values the individual and fosters independent thought.

And yet, ironically, a major reason why the society in which you live does value the individual and fosters independent thought is due to Christianity.

Immaterial to my opinion of it.
People can take almost anything and contort it to serve their purpose. Christianity isn't immune to this.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying your problem is not with Christianity, but rather people who "contort it to serve their purpose"?

The 'why society', in which we live, has evolved to do this or that is immaterial or irrelevant to my opinion of modern Christianity.
In other words, I don't care about the 'why'. It has little to nothing to do with my current opinion of said religion as it's practiced today.
The people...they're a whole different ball of wax.

[Haven]

What do you mean by "conservative" Christianity?

I mean Christianity in keeping with historical tradition, and viewing the Godhead, events of the Bible, and Church history as authoritative and, in most respects, literally true. This would include Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelical forms of Christianity (excluding liberal variants).

[historia]

I find modern Christianity a disgusting and vile, barbaric ritualization that has no place in society that values the individual and fosters independent thought.

And yet, ironically, a major reason why the society in which you live does value the individual and fosters independent thought is due to Christianity.

Immaterial to my opinion of it.
People can take almost anything and contort it to serve their purpose. Christianity isn't immune to this.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying your problem is not with Christianity, but rather people who "contort it to serve their purpose"?

The 'why society', in which we live, has evolved to do this or that is immaterial or irrelevant to my opinion of modern Christianity.
In other words, I don't care about the 'why'. It has little to nothing to do with my current opinion of said religion as it's practiced today.

That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational.

I just didn't understand what you were referring to when you said people can "contort it to serve their purpose." Perhaps that was just a bit of a non sequitur.

[historia]

What do you mean by "conservative" Christianity?

I mean Christianity in keeping with historical tradition, and viewing the Godhead, events of the Bible, and Church history as authoritative and, in most respects, literally true. This would include Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelical forms of Christianity (excluding liberal variants).

Thanks for the clear definition.

2. (Conservative) Christianity states as Fact (that is, objective truth for all) several claims that are known to be false, and several that are extremely unlikely to be true, and completely unevidenced. This includes special creation 6,000 years ago, a global flood, miraculous events, known historical errors (like the Census mentioned in Luke, which did not happen at the time Luke said it did), the resurrection of Jesus, and the End Times. Ordinarily I would overlook such errors, as all human spiritualities contain them, but conservative Christianity claims to be a perfect faith, with a 100% true, direct-from-God Bible and doctrine. Because of these aggressive claims, I must hold it to a higher standard than those faiths that don’t claim perfection.

3. (Conservative) Christianity is profoundly sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and judgmental to nonbelievers. It explicitly calls for male supremacy, says women are merely objects for male pleasure and assistance, and considers LGBTQIA+ people little more than abominations that deserve extinction and eternal hellfire. It is also racist, pitting Christendom (traditional Western society) against the “demonic” faiths of non-Western people.

It seems to me that, given your definition above, very little of #2 and #3 applies to traditional Roman Catholicism.

For example, where does one find the idea that the earth is only 6,000 years old, or that women are "merely objects for male pleasure," or racism toward non-Western peoples in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

To me, this reads more like a (perhaps ungenerous) description of some White American Evangelicals. Is that who you had in mind?

[Haven]

It seems to me that, given your definition above, very little of #2 and #3 applies to traditional Roman Catholicism.

For example, where does one find the idea that the earth is only 6,000 years old, or that women are "merely objects for male pleasure," or racism toward non-Western peoples in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

The Catechism is not the only source for Catholic doctrine, as you yourself should know. It is a brief summary, a statement of faith, and does not describe the full corpus of Catholic belief and practice. One must also look at Church history, tradition, and practice, as well as Biblical sources.

1. While the Catholic Church has never specifically given an age of the Earth, it has affirmed a literal Adam and Eve, which would seem to imply some form of creationism. Later Catholic sources (late 19th century and onward) affirming evolution and an ancient Earth is encouraging, but does not undo historical readings of Genesis promoted by the Church. Still, I will concede that much of YEC has been a Protestant movement.

2. The Catholic Church explicitly assigns a subservient role for women, both in the home and in the church. We are forbidden from serving as priests, bishops, cardinals, or popes, and are only allowed “helping” roles as nuns and lay leaders. It also teaches that the man is the authority in the home, with the wife and children charged with obeying him. The Catholic marriage vow even said (for a woman) “to honor and obey,” before this was altered in the modern era.

3. You conveniently skipped over the Church’s treatment of the LGBTQIA community, but this is perhaps most egregious. Your doctrine in no uncertain terms calls us evil, says that we are in league with the Devil, and forbids us from marriage and even (in the case of trans people) existence. It says we will burn in your Hell for all eternity merely for being born with a sexuality / gender identity / gender expression at odds with traditional conservative preconceptions, and seeking out love / authentic expression of self. Historically, the Church authorized our executions, tortured us as punishment / trial by ordeal, and persecuted us to the ends of the Earth, so to speak. The fact that Pope Francis has made some minor gestures of reconciliation with us doesn’t undo 2,000 years of hate, condemnation, and persecution.

[Haven]

4. As for the Church’s history of racism, one must only look to the colonial programs it sponsored. Spanish colonialism (done in the name of the King and the Catholic Church) devastated the Native Americans living in North and South America. French colonialism (again, spreading Catholicism played a major role) decimated my country, Madagascar. The Church often called nonbelievers “pagans” and “savages,” and saw a duty to Christianize the world (originally, through colonialism). While the Church has never officially endorsed white supremacy, its policies have promoted it, especially in years past.

[William]

You have just given a far more honest answer and perspective than any white knuckled and arrogant moderator or any yapping pundit in this forum.

Due completely because of similar expressions as this used by former members of this forum, I predict with good certainty that if you keep up this type of response, it won't be long until you too, are a former member of this forum.

Please seriously think about changing your approach.

Within 10 days of my prediction, it happened.

[Purple Knight]

Why the complaint?

Sin transference. My problem with Christianity (and Judaism) is sin transference.

I don't believe it's right for one person to take punishment for another. I don't even believe it is possible.

If Mitsy sins and Donna is punished for it, that doesn't add up to justice in any way, shape, or form. That adds up to two injustices.

[historia]

For example, where does one find the idea that the earth is only 6,000 years old, or that women are "merely objects for male pleasure," or racism toward non-Western peoples in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

The Catechism is not the only source for Catholic doctrine, as you yourself should know. It is a brief summary, a statement of faith, and does not describe the full corpus of Catholic belief and practice.

At 800 pages, I wouldn't exactly call the Catechism "brief." But if you'd also like to reference the ecclesiastical texts cited by the Catechism, that would be swell.

One must also look at Church history, tradition, and practice, as well as Biblical sources.

The problem with this approach, though, is that now we're just debating Haven's impressions of what Roman Catholics may have believed in the past, which is problematic on two counts: (a) it's not objective, and (b) your critique in post 66 is framed entirely in the present tense, alleging what conservative Christianity "is," "states," "claims" "considers" and "calls for."

I will concede that much of YEC has been a Protestant movement.

Agreed. And, to that end, we should strike it (and related ideas) from a general description of "conservative Christianity."

The Catholic Church explicitly assigns a subservient role for women, both in the home and in the church.

But this does not, in itself, substantiate the claim that women are "merely objects for male pleasure."

In contrast, the Church's teachings on equality and sexuality (see, e.g., CCC 2360 and following) are expressly designed to counteract such impulses.

As for the Church’s history of racism, one must only look to the colonial programs it sponsored.

Perhaps you'd like to rephrase your original critique into the past tense, then.

The Catholic Church is among the world's most ethnically diverse religious communities, and it's teachings on the equality of all people and social justice are quite clear (see CCC 1928 and following), and thus cannot rightly be called "racist" toward non-Western peoples.

[Roman Catholic] doctrine in no uncertain terms calls [homosexuals] evil, says that we are in league with the Devil, and forbids us from marriage and even (in the case of trans people) existence. It says we will burn in your Hell for all eternity merely for being born with a sexuality / gender identity / gender expression at odds with traditional conservative preconceptions, and seeking out love / authentic expression of self.

Where in the Catechism (or related encyclicals and conciliar texts) does it say that people with same-sex attraction are "evil" and "in league with the Devil," that people who do not identify with their biological sex don't exist, or that merely being born a certain way means one will "burn in Hell for all eternity?"

[Avoice]

[Replying to Benson in post #1]

Jesus says?

That's the problem right there. You worship a man as God.

Christianity claims to be monotheistic by claiming Jesus is God. If not for the trinity even Christians would know they were idolaters. Father/ son/ holy ghost. All equal huh? Not much they are. It's all about Jesus with Christians. The God of Israel is only used as a credit reference. The first Christians what you'd never have believed had they not believed the God of Israel was a part if it. But truth is :. He is NO PART OF CHRISTIANITY. it's all about Jesus. Christmas...it's about Jesus. Easter...Jesus again.

Jesus is God huh? We can kill God? Gee...how does that work?
Jesus paid the price for our sins? Really? Paid them to who? Himself?

Jesus is merely some mens opinion of God. They want God to kill himself for their disobedience. And they have no respect for God. Depicting him nearly naked hanging up. If you think he's God cover him up. What's wrong with you!!?