Why would God do this?

[Tommy63]

It has been a long time since I have been on here. For 17 years I have tried my best to follow what the Bible has told me to do. I have not been perfect in my walk, but I have tried to do the best I can.

For the past 2 years now I have started to question my beliefs in my religion, and have started to lose my faith in what God can do. My whole life has been one failure after another. I have never been able to be happy due to judgement, gossip, lies, and greed being placed upon me. I was told by the bible that if you knock, it would be opened for you....ask, and you shall receive....that we are God's children....and God loves us. I have read these things, but have not seen them in my life, which has caused me to question the things I have read, and been told. Here are a few of the things that are heavy on my soul now.

1. I understand that God created the heavens and the earth, and that satan was expelled from heaven. I would have to assume that satan was kick out of heaven after God created the earth and put Adam and Eve there, for how could satan have fell to earth if it was not created yet? With that being said, If God is the most powerful, why would he allowed satan to fall to earth, a place he created, and placed man upon it to live in peace and harmony, with beauty all around? God also told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree. If God is everywhere, all the time, why would he have allowed satan to enter the garden of Eden, and why would he allow satan to persuade Eve to eat from the tree? If he expelled satan from heaven, could He not have expelled him from earth or smite him down? Man is now punished for something God allowed to happen. Why would God do this?

2. The story of Noah talks about God flooding the earth because of sin overwhelming earth. Since God allowed satan to fall to earth, and not protect his children from this evil by destroying satan, is this not God's fault for allowing the evil to grow? Why is man to blame for a seed that God allowed to be planted on this earth? Why would God do this?

3. Man has always been a sinner since the days of Eden. I know the Bible is written by man. I know that there were debates over which books would be put in the Bible. I know that Jesus is a part of God made into man that came to earth. So if Jesus is God himself as man, then why didn't Jesus write the bible? Why would God put trust in man, who has failed short of the glory because of his vanity, greed, lies, and temptations, why would God allow man to write the Bible? Why would God do this?

[nobspeople]

Many of the stories in the bible make no sense IMO ...

Opinion duly noted and dismissed. In my opinion every single story in the bible makes perfect sense.



Have a most excellent weekend,


JW

I know you do
And while I appreciate your opinion on the matter, I just can't bring myself to agree no matter how much I may want to agree
It is what it is I suppose.

[1213]

...I was told by the bible that if you knock, it would be opened for you....ask, and you shall receive....that we are God's children....and God loves us. I have read these things, but have not seen them in my life, which has caused me to question the things I have read, and been told. Here are a few of the things that are heavy on my soul now...

Could you give one example that you have asked but not received any answer?

1. I understand that God created the heavens and the earth, and that satan was expelled from heaven. I would have to assume that satan was kick out of heaven after God created the earth and put Adam and Eve there, for how could satan have fell to earth if it was not created yet? With that being said, If God is the most powerful, why would he allowed satan to fall to earth, a place he created, and placed man upon it to live in peace and harmony, with beauty all around? God also told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree. If God is everywhere, all the time, why would he have allowed satan to enter the garden of Eden, and why would he allow satan to persuade Eve to eat from the tree? If he expelled satan from heaven, could He not have expelled him from earth or smite him down? Man is now punished for something God allowed to happen. Why would God do this?

It would help a lot, if you could show also the scriptures that tell what you said. But, I think people were not at mercy of Satan. God had told them what will happen, if they eat the fruit. Satan told a different story. People could have easily asked from God, what does this mean. But no, Eve rather wanted to become like God and therefore believed Satan rather than God. I believe God allowed that so that people have possibility to reject Him and know evil like he knows. But, people were not helpless, they had possibility to choose well also. I think it would have happened even without Satan and I think people can’t blame Satan or God of their own stupid actions in any case, because people are not idots that can't think on their own.

2. The story of Noah talks about God flooding the earth because of sin overwhelming earth. Since God allowed satan to fall to earth, and not protect his children from this evil by destroying satan, is this not God's fault for allowing the evil to grow? Why is man to blame for a seed that God allowed to be planted on this earth? Why would God do this?

People are protected, but people are also free, they can choose wrongly. Satan can’t force against God’s will anyone to do stupid things. Evil grows, when people reject God and it is their own choice and own fault. People really are responsible of all their evil words and works. Satan is responsible of his own words and works. I think it is wrong when people try to blame others of their own evilness.

3. Man has always been a sinner since the days of Eden. I know the Bible is written by man. I know that there were debates over which books would be put in the Bible. I know that Jesus is a part of God made into man that came to earth. So if Jesus is God himself as man, then why didn't Jesus write the bible? Why would God put trust in man, who has failed short of the glory because of his vanity, greed, lies, and temptations, why would God allow man to write the Bible? Why would God do this?

I believe Bible is written and collected in the guidance of God. God has made it sure that there is all necessary and that it is has not anything that should not be there. Also, according to the Bible, there has been also righteous people. I think they are ok for the job.

But, I don’t think it is Biblical to say Jesus is God, because he says in the Bible:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

And even Paul says:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

[William]

It would help a lot, if you could show also the scriptures that tell what you said. But, I think people were not at mercy of Satan. God had told them what will happen, if they eat the fruit. Satan told a different story. People could have easily asked from God, what does this mean. But no, Eve rather wanted to become like God and therefore believed Satan rather than God. I believe God allowed that so that people have possibility to reject Him and know evil like he knows. But, people were not helpless, they had possibility to choose well also. I think it would have happened even without Satan and I think people can’t blame Satan or God of their own stupid actions in any case, because people are not idots that can't think on their own.

It would help Tommy63 and others in a similar position, if Christians could even get their stories straight and true. Adam sinned first. Putting Eve in the spotlight which Adam deserves to be put in, [re the story] doesn't help ones argument.

If one does remove the elements of the God, the Serpent and the fruit, from the story and just say then that "it was always in human beings to be wanting to know what it was like to be knowledgeable" and "in learning this, humans naturally enough went through the process [now called history] of finding out."

Therefore the element referred to as "sin" can also be removed from the story because without the God, The Serpent, and the fruit, "sin" becomes redundant.

In that, the human desire to want to know, [be like those who know] is not sinful. As we should all be able to appreciate, it is actually helpful...

[Tommy63]

I appreciate the people who understand where I am on this road, but some of you are not understanding that you are trying to answer my questions with your own personal views from scriptures, and books written by men. Some of these men, and even some of you may be great philosophers, or even geniuses in these fields, but this does not mean that what someone speaks about, is actually the truth, but more of their opinions or views on the matter.

You can tell me the sun rises and sets everyday....and because I can see that, I know it to be true, but if there is no proof in the pudding so to speak, how can anyone say that what they wrote about God is actually the truth, because God told them to write it? We can't. But when you throw into the equation "You must walk by faith" you can make people believe in almost anything you tell them.

There is no proof that God spoke to any of the people who wrote the scriptures in the Bible, we have to believe it happened that way. In my life here I have witness pastors who claim God had told them to murder people by making them drink the kool-aid, and serial killers who claim God told them to do the acts they committed. Would you say these people were spoken to by God, or would you call them crazy? This is no different from people trying to tell me that words written by man are the truth.

I heard someone speak of Adam and Eve, and how they were acting out from the beginning, but if God created them, then there only form of education would have been from God. We learn what we are taught, so how would Adam and Eve have known to act out, if it wasn't taught to them by God? If God created them in His own image, then God Himself must have been out of line as well.

So what do Christians think of 'Incest'?

Is it okay me to have sex with my sister, or my mother?

We have learned that this type of breeding leads to many genetic disorders?

If there was only Adam and Eve, and they had Cain and Abel, then the only way that Cain could have taken a wife is if Adam and Eve produced her, which means Cain married his sister, and had sex to produce the population, or it was Cain having sex with his Mother producing a daughter for him to marry and produce a population. Why would God do this?

[brunumb]

Exactly how does that answer the question regarding Satan being allowed to exist and tempt mankind to settle the issue of universal Sovereignty?

I wasn't addressing that question. The above answer was in response to the question...

1) Exactly where does this information come from?

And that was directly referring to the statement regarding Satan. Nice dodge, again.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Tommy63 in post #25]

The inspiration of the Bible is a conclusion, not a starting point. So, if you will indulge me in a little Socratic method, let me ask some questions to see where you are in your journey and then see how problematic believing that the Bible is true might be for you. You can just give yes or no answers, or elaborate at your will.

My first question is: Do you believe that there is a personal God of some kind?

In asking this I am asking if you think existence, the universe, life, etc. was designed or if it was purely the product of chance. I am also asking if you think that this God is personal and therefore capable of communicating with people, or if you view God (if there is any God) more like the Force from Star Wars – an impersonal power incapable of direct communication or design.

FYI, I am only going to respond to Tommy here. Anyone else can comment and I will let their debate go forward, but I will not participate.






I will not follow you down the rabbit hole of incest. In days of Adam either God created other people that we are not told about in the Bible, or incest was involved in propagating the species. If the latter, then I understand the problems of incest today. I also understand the special circumstances involved and that our inability to study human DNA at that state of human development make modern genetic studies basically irrelevant.

[Mithrae]

There is no proof that God spoke to any of the people who wrote the scriptures in the Bible, we have to believe it happened that way. In my life here I have witness pastors who claim God had told them to murder people by making them drink the kool-aid, and serial killers who claim God told them to do the acts they committed. Would you say these people were spoken to by God, or would you call them crazy? This is no different from people trying to tell me that words written by man are the truth.

If you learned that Christianity was 'false,' would you stop being a Christian? Serious question. It's a religion which involves local community engagement; deep historical roots; all kinds of cultural trappings like music, literature etc.; biblical stories and myths which can be mined for existential and moral purpose; and of course metaphysical claims about God, heaven, hell and so on. So if you learned that the last bit was incorrect, would you abandon all the other stuff?

I'm just thinking that if fear of hell or hope of answered prayers or desire for an invisible friend were the only reasons that someone was a Christian, maybe they're not the best reasons... and obviously 'doubt' about the literal truth of those claims would be a serious problem. But if they appreciate the moral framework they develop from their religion, or the sense of community and fellowship, or the depth of culture in music and literature, or the existential refernce points of biblical mythology - or all of the above - then those are probably pretty good reasons to be a Christian regardless of doubt about the literal truth of metaphysical claims. They'll probably find a way to make it work even if they learn for a fact that something they've been told is a 'core doctrine' (such as biblical inspiration) is definitely false.

When I lost my faith I ended up going through a bit of a depressive period afterwards, which isn't something I'd wish on anyone. So one of my hobbies in the years since has been thinking of ways in which Christianity might make sense. There's a few ways of looking at it, I think, but none of them include the notion that the bible is the 'word of God' - in fact I'd argue that the bible itself teaches against that notion quite strongly!

[Miles]

1. ...If God is the most powerful, why would he allowed satan to fall to earth...?

Satan has been allowed to exist and tempt mankind to settle the issue of universal Sovereignty.

Several questions.

1) Exactly where does this information come from? Like chapter and verse, or wherever.

That comes from my exercise of critical thinking skills based on my analysis of the themes presented in the entire bible. I dont need a chapter and verse that says the words "do not chop up Hilda your neighbour's wife" to intelligently interpret "thou shalt not murder".

Perhaps not, but such a possibility is a real phenomenon. People chopping up my neighbor, while highly improbable, still exists within reality, as is the notion of an injunction against it because they are substantiated concepts. However, your statement "Satan has been allowed to exist and tempt mankind to settle the issue of universal Sovereignty" is extremely specific, with concepts such as "Satan . . . tempt[ing] mankind to settle" and "universal Sovereignty" having no basis in any historical experience, or declared in any "authoritative" literature such as a bible. So I can only conclude that these are products of pure imagination, which, of course, are no more credible than a claim of flying pigs. Your exercise of critical thinking skills not withstanding.

2) What is the issue of "Universal Sovereignty"?

It is the question of who has the right to rule as the supreme universal* authority.

There's a question? I always thought Christians, Jews, and Muslims considered that the god of Abraham had the right to be thee "supreme universal authority." And where do such doubts reside? Just who has to be convinced?


.

[Overcomer]

Tommy63 wrote:

There is no proof that God spoke to any of the people who wrote the scriptures in the Bible, we have to believe it happened that way. In my life here I have witness pastors who claim God had told them to murder people by making them drink the kool-aid, and serial killers who claim God told them to do the acts they committed. Would you say these people were spoken to by God, or would you call them crazy? This is no different from people trying to tell me that words written by man are the truth.

Actually there is evidence that God spoke to those people. Have you looked for it? Studied it? You might start with this:

https://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html

And this:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

You have made this statement:

I appreciate the people who understand where I am on this road, but some of you are not understanding that you are trying to answer my questions with your own personal views from scriptures, and books written by men. Some of these men, and even some of you may be great philosophers, or even geniuses in these fields, but this does not mean that what someone speaks about, is actually the truth, but more of their opinions or views on the matter.

You are already believing what men have written -- men who have written that the Bible isn't reliable, that it isn't the Word of God, that you shouldn't believe it, that you'd be better off without thinking or caring about God.

What I see with doubters is this: They have a tendency to read whatever feeds their doubts, not the things that could feed their faith. I don't know if that's the case with you, but if it is, then give God a chance.

You cannot sit in a room alone and get what you need to know about God. You HAVE to trust that he has used men and women through whom he has spoken -- because he has and he still does.

The people who start cults -- the kool aid drinkers as you have noted -- have NOTHING to do with God or the Bible. Yes, there are people who take God's Word and misinterpret it. Yes, there are people who are interested in power and money and sex and they will use religion to get it. But the fact that there are people who misuse and abuse the Bible and do things in God's name that are evil does NOT mean that God isn't real. Nor does it mean that God doesn't care or that God's Word doesn't present the truth. Nor does it mean that there aren't good men and women who truly have connected with God and who God uses to speak to us in this world.

Tommy wrote:

I heard someone speak of Adam and Eve, and how they were acting out from the beginning, but if God created them, then there only form of education would have been from God. We learn what we are taught, so how would Adam and Eve have known to act out, if it wasn't taught to them by God? If God created them in His own image, then God Himself must have been out of line as well.

Being made in God's image doesn't mean that we are identical to him. It means we share some of his characteristics -- mostly importantly for this topic, his ability to think, reason, make decisions. Our failures are NOT a reflection on the character of God. The Bible states that he is holy. The world holy literally means "set apart". It means that he is wholly other, that is, he is NOT identical to his creation and his creation is not identical to him. We are a reflection of him, not a replica.

Tommy wrote:

So what do Christians think of 'Incest'?
Is it okay me to have sex with my sister, or my mother?
We have learned that this type of breeding leads to many genetic disorders?

If there was only Adam and Eve, and they had Cain and Abel, then the only way that Cain could have taken a wife is if Adam and Eve produced her, which means Cain married his sister, and had sex to produce the population, or it was Cain having sex with his Mother producing a daughter for him to marry and produce a population. Why would God do this?

Incest became a problem, not for moral reasons, but for health ones. As time went on, the gene pool broke down (as a result of the Fall and the introduction of evil) so that marriage between close relatives brought the danger of offspring with serious health issues and genetic abnormalities -- just as you have noted.

You can read more here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/incest-in-the-Bible.html

There is nothing wrong with doubt. It's a healthy thing and a normal thing. We should all question our beliefs, not just with regard to God, but with regard to anything that affects how we choose to live out our lives. But it's important to look for answers in the right places.

Another thing: You speak of proof. You will not find 100 per cent proof about God, Jesus, the Bible, Christianity or anything else in life. We all live by faith based on evidence. I encourage you to continue to look for evidence that answers the questions you have. But as I said, it looks to me like you are willing to believe things written against God and the Bible based on what other people have said, including people who have no connection with God at all. Why can you not believe things written positively about God and the Bible by people who DO have a connection with God?

A lot of people's problems re: God stem from their misunderstanding of him and unrealistic expectations of what he should or should not do. With the Lord, it's all about relationship with him and that means studying the Bible and using information from others who are filled with the Holy Spirit and hearing from him. It means being part of a church where God is at work.

Just don't let the devil win -- because if he wins, you lose.

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to Tommy63 in post #1]

"Jesus"/Yeshua is not god. That was a message that came out of the Nicene Council convened by the 7th head of the beast (Revelation 17), the Roman emperor Constantine, and promulgated by his Roman Catholic church, a daughter of Babylon. The devil represents darkness, whereas with no darkness, how are you to perceive light. Without bitter, how can you appreciate sweet. This world is based on the law of opposites, such as Newton's first law. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. As for the bible, you might read Matthew 13, and find out that the NT bible has both the seed of the devil and the good seed of Yeshua, whereas the seed of the devil, the tare seed, produces tares. You would be wise to disregard the tare seed, which is in effect the teachings of the false prophets, who are wolves dressed as sheep (Matthew 7). The foremost of the false prophets would be the false prophet Paul, whom your "Christian" religion is built around. His false grace message was we surely shall not sleep/die, which is the same message the serpent gave to Eve. Both Paul and Eve died. All of Paul's contemporary followers are dead. And everyone dies for their own iniquities (Jeremiah 31:30).