Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.
23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn
24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned
With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death
(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)
The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326
Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote
But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/
His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church
What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.
so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently
He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].
https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.
Last edited by mms20102 on Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #2

Post by Athetotheist »

mms20102 wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:57 pm Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.
23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn
24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned
With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death
(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)
The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326
Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote
But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/
His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church
What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.
so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently
He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].
https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.
The King James translation of the book of Daniel is not good. Here's just one of many illustrations of this:

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... -of-events

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #3

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

[Replying to mms20102 in post #1]

You forgot to mention that in Daniel 7:25, that he (Constantine) would try and "make alterations" in "times and law", whereas Constantine's decree of 321 changed the day of rest, whereas no one could buy or sell, to be set as the day of the sun, the day of his sun god Sol Invictus. There were two stories aligned with his battle of the 312 AD Milvian bridge, written by his Arian clergy toady empire historian, who also claimed Constantine was supposedly baptized on his death bed, and the first story being that of his vision of Sol Invictus at the battle of Milvian bridge, in which he was to go out and conquer the world under the sign of the cross. In the next year, 313 AD, he minted a coin with the image of Sol Invictus. As for conquering under the sign of the cross, his labarum, this was also done later in the Roman empire, such as in the Roman Catholic crowned king of Spain, sending his conquistadors to crush the natives in the Americas, and the Church sending armies to Jerusalem, in the Crusades, following clergy carrying the cross. Today, the Roman law of having the day of the sun, Sunday, as the day of rest, is represented by the Blue Laws. Keep in mind, that the number of the beast with two horns like a lamb, 616 (Revelation 13), is the number of Constantine's name. As for the two horns like a lamb, those are two Christ like leaders, wolves in sheep's clothing/false prophets (Matthew 7), who were glorified by Constantine when he built basilicas for both Peter and Paul, two of the three shepherds who were mentioned in Zechariah 11, whereas Matthew 27:9, identifies the 3rd shepherd as Judas Iscariot, and Peter would be the "shepherd" identified as the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17, called "cords", as he was supposedly crucified on a cross, hung on a tree overnight, a curse per Deuteronomy, by the use of the cord around his clothing. The 3rd shepherd would be Paul, named "Favor", as in his false gospel of grace. His supposed political motivated death by Nero, was probably done by a wooden handled garrote, the favorite choice of Nero to rid himself of political enemies. Judas, as also under a curse because he also hung by a tree (over night), which is a curse. The Christians claim Yeshua also was under the curse of Deuteronomy, but that is not the case, for Yeshua was taken down before nightfall. As we are at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13), there is nothing that will not be revealed, and judgment is on the way (Matthew 13:40).

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

mms20102 wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:57 pm so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great
Jehovahs Witness here. Our understandjng is the "little horn" was not Constantine (nor any single individual actually) but rather it symbolised the rise if the British empire.
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:15 am
mms20102 wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:57 pm so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great
Jehovahs Witness here. Our understandjng is the "little horn" was not Constantine (nor any single individual actually) but rather it symbolised the rise if the British empire.
Interesting to know what the miss understanding of Jehovahs is, but you forgot to list your basis for their conclusion. What 10 kings did the British follow, what 3 kings did the "another" subdue, and what times and the law did the he/they endeavor to alter. (Daniel 7:24-25). And how did they, the British, wear down the saints? Did not the British throw the German Kaiser/Roman Caesar (iron) and the Turks (Edom) (clay)(Daniel 2:34) out of Judea in 1918 and set up the readmittance of the Jews into Judea under the Balfour declaration of 1917? The "another" of Daniel 7:24 is the same "another" of Revelation 13:11 who rode on the "great harlot" of Revelation 17:1 which would be represented by the Roman Catholic church which crowned or supported the 10 horns of the 8th head of the beast. Apparently Great Britain created their own harlot daughter to crown their own kings, which is apart from the the "woman drunk with the blood of the saints" (Revelation 17:6), whose central foundation (Trinity) was set by Constantine at his 325 Council of Nicaea.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am What 10 kings did the British follow...?

THE RISE OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE

Image
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am ...what 3 kings did the "another" subdue
Image






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How does the sequencing of Daniel and Revelation correspond?
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... how did they, the British, wear down the saints? ....
They didn't. By the time that verse (7:25) was fulfilled we believe the horn developed into the anglo-american world power.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... Did not the British throw the German Kaiser/Roman Caesar (iron) and the Turks (Edom) (clay)(Daniel 2:34) ....

We have another understanding of the "iron" and the clay feet of Daniel 2.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #9

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #6]

If you don't mind I would like you first to criticize my interpretation then start putting assumptions.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #10

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:29 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... how did they, the British, wear down the saints? ....
They didn't. By the time that verse (7:25) was fulfilled we believe the horn developed into the anglo-american world power.

Image
The JW's false prophecy of 1917 for 1918 is one of many on the record:
1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions". Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy". The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.

As for the feet of iron and clay, per Daniel 2, they were to be crushed twice, once by themselves, as done at the end of WWI at the valley of Megido, and then all the metals were to be crushed at the same time (Daniel 2:34-35), which will be known as Har-Magedo (Revelation 16:16). Persia/Iran, the breast of silver, has yet to be crushed together with all the rest with a stone made without hands (Daniel 2:45). It is Judah, with their history of false prophets, who will be like a "firepot among pieces of wood" (Zechariah 12:6-9) who will bring down their neighbors (clay mixed with iron), and "all the nations who come against Jerusalem, Iran/Persia. The JW's are not the holy people/saints of Daniel 7:25 nor are they included in Revelation/Daniel except as a daughter of Babylon want to be, who also carry the mark of the beast (Constantine)(Revelation 13).

As for your previous reference to your rapture of the saints (JW's in your narrative), it is the "tares" who are the first to be gathered out and burnt, not the wheat (Matthew 13:30). You have the story and participants backward. The holy people are to be gathered into the barn, which is the land of Jacob. (Ezekiel 37)

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