Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

mms20102
Scholar
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.
23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn
24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned
With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death
(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)
The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326
Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote
But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/
His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church
What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.
so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently
He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].
https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.
Last edited by mms20102 on Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #11

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:55 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am What 10 kings did the British follow...?
Image
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am ...what 3 kings did the "another" subdue
Image
The Roman nations that the British, along with their ally, the USA (Isaiah 18:7) crushed, were the German Kaiser (Caesar) in WWI, the German Fuhrer (Caesar) in WWII, and the Italian Julius Caesar Mussolini in WWII. This would be more in the realm of the crushing of Daniel 2:45 than Daniel 7:24, the act of 3 kings being subdued. Britain, nor the USA, took over control of the Netherlands, France, nor Spain, but protected the Netherlands and France during WWII, and helped rebuild them after.

Your allusion to the 10 horns is too vague to determine which kings you are pointing out. It seemed more like throwing mud at a wall.

The JW's prophecy of 1917, regarding 1918, proved to be a false prophecy among many others. As the JW's seem to want to be included as being deemed as being Christian, it seemed like a self defeating prophecy. Looking at the news, you were clearly off by at least 100 years if the Marxist anarchy of today could possibly survive, which it is clearly in trouble. The anarchist of today will soon be eating their own flesh.

JW prophecy of 1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions". Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy". The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 433 times
Been thanked: 659 times
Contact:

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:23 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:29 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... how did they, the British, wear down the saints? ....
They didn't. By the time that verse (7:24) was fulfilled we believe the horn developed into the anglo-american world power.

Image
The JW's false prophecy of ..1918 { snip: irrelevant}


Jehovah's witnesses have never presumed to prophecy, we have like many, simply sought to understand existing prophcy. Sometimes we got things right, sometimes we were mistaken. We believe with hindsight what happened to Jehovahs Witnesses (then known as The Bible Students) in 1918 represented the fulfillment of Daniel chapter 7v25.

2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:23 amThe JW's are not the holy people/saints of Daniel 7:25 ...
We believe we are (see above).




JW



RELATED POSTS
Who are "The holy ones" of Daniel 7:25? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1031770#p1031770

Who are the "two witneses" of Revelation 11:3?
viewtopic.php?p=1021948#p1021948

Who are the 144,000 (Rev 7:4)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 94#p846594
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 433 times
Been thanked: 659 times
Contact:

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:11 am As for the two horns like a lamb, those are two Christ like leaders, wolves in sheep's clothing/false prophets
The Jehovahs Witness view is different in that we believe the land/earth beast of Revelation again corresponds to the anglo- american world power.


Image
To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION
*The Return of Christ
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #14

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:46 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:23 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:29 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... how did they, the British, wear down the saints? ....
They didn't. By the time that verse (7:24) was fulfilled we believe the horn developed into the anglo-american world power.

Image
The JW's false prophecy of ..1918 { snip: irrelevant}
Jehovah's witnesses have never presumed to prophecy, we have like many, simply sought to understand existing prophcy. Sometimes we got things right, sometimes we were mistaken. We believe with hindsight what happened to Jehovahs Witnesses (then known as Ghe Bible Students) in 1918 represented the fulfillment of Daniel chapter 7v25.

2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:23 amThe JW's are not the holy people/saints of Daniel 7:25 ...
We believe we are (see above).

JW
Thinking the JWs are the "saints" has apparently led you down the rabbit hole. The JWs are a relic of the 19th century. Daniel 7:25 refers to the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17, whereas we are now in the 21st century, and in the era of the 8th head of the beast of Revelation 17, the "beast which was" (Julius Caesar). Apparently, according to you, you don't "understand" prophecy, and that would be explained in Daniel 12:10, and is caused by "wickedness", or ones lack of observing the law, and receiving the mark of the beast, which according to Revelation 14:10, will end with the those having to drink from the cup of God's wrath. The JW's boogey man, the Roman Catholic church, was established at the Council of Nicaea, which was convened by the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17, who was the Roman emperor Constantine. It is in his decree/law of 321 AD by which the JWs abide. And the Anglo-American power did not "intent to make alterations in times and in law". It was Julius Caesar, the Roman Catholic Pope, and Constantine who intended to change time and laws. You live under the parameters of the Julian calendar altered by the Roman Pope, and the day of rest, contrary to the law, as being the day of the sun god Sol Invictus, which is Sunday, instituted by the Roman emperor.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 433 times
Been thanked: 659 times
Contact:

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:37 am. ... we are now in the 21st century, and in the era of the 8th head of the beast of Revelation 17, the "beast which was" (Julius Caesar).

There is no 8th head of the beast of Revelation 17 (it only has 7 heads) but the beast itself acts like an 8th king. We Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe this king represents Julius Caesar but rather that it represents the UNITED NATIONS

Image


RELATED POSTS
Should the prophecies of Revelation be limited to first century and earlier?
viewtopic.php?p=905233#p905233

How does the sequencing of Daniel and Revelation correspond?
viewtopic.php?p=1022583#p1022583

Who or what are represented by the feet of clay and iron in Daniels prophecy ?
viewtopic.php?p=1021364#p1021364
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

mms20102
Scholar
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #16

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #16]

If interpretations are left for personal preferences we can have millions of interpretations. And this leads us to what are the basis of interpretation for the JW ? and If you don't mind make it in words

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 433 times
Been thanked: 659 times
Contact:

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

mms20102 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:34 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #16]

... what are the basis of interpretation for the JW ? and If you don't mind make it in words
Regarding the 8th king? I will of you will... You didn't offer basis for your interpretation that the 8th King represents Julius Caesar so I simply responded in type.


After you.



JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #18

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:53 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:37 am. ... we are now in the 21st century, and in the era of the 8th head of the beast of Revelation 17, the "beast which was" (Julius Caesar).

There is no 8th head of the beast of Revelation 17 (it only has 7 heads) but the beast itself acts like an 8th king. We Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe this king represents Julius Caesar but rather that it represents the UNITED NATIONS

Image
Julius Caesar would be the 5th head of the beast, "the beast that was and is not, is himself an eighth, and is one of the seven". This comment was made during the 6th head of the beast, the one that is (Revelation 17). The eighth head of the beast would have 10 horns, which in this era, they have been the Caesar/Kaiser of Germany, the Czar/Caesar of Russia, Julius Caesar Mussolini of Rome, Fuhrer/Caesar of the 3rd Reich (3rd Roman Empire), etc. The 2nd Roman empire (2nd Reich) was French. It was the Jews in 1967 and 73 who crushed the 5 nations of Edom the clay of the toes, and their Russian/Roman/iron minder, with the help of the Anglos. All of these horns of the 8th head of the of the Roman beast were crushed by the help of the Anglo Saxon coalition. The Anglo Saxons support Jerusalem, and will not be as a "flaming torch" when the "clans of Judah" burn through their enemies (Zechariah 12:5-6) by means of the "support of God". The USA never existed before 1776, and has had no connection to Julius Caesar/Hitler, who turned his Republic into a dictatorship, until Mr. Biden made 51 executive orders, decrees, in his first 3 weeks of office, and endeavors to crush dissent through reeducation programs. The JWs are a sect which heeds the decree of the 7th head of the beast, Constantine, and apparently carry his mark. The feeble United Nations does not resemble any of the 7 heads of the beast, nor do they represent 10 horns. The beast of Revelation 13 was slain, as was Caesar, and came to life, when made a god by the Roman Senate, and wore down the saints in Jerusalem in the form of the 10 following Augustus Caesars. After Caesar crossed the Rubicon, he ruled for 42 months, the same time span of the ruling of the beast of Revelation 13.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 433 times
Been thanked: 659 times
Contact:

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

I don't understand, who or what does the 8th head represent and why do you thus conclude?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #20

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:44 pm I don't understand, who or what does the 8th head represent and why do you thus conclude?
The 8th head would represent the demon spirit of Julius Caesar (Revelation 14:9-10), the one who was and is not (Revelation 17), who is manifested through the 10 horns of Revelation 17:12, which are the dictators/Caesars following the 7th head of the beast Constantine, whose Roman or Eastern Roman church they rode (Revelation 17:3). We are in the era of when the clans of Judah will be like a burning torch among its enemies (Zechariah 12:6), such as the 1967 war, and in the time when all the nations of Daniel 2:45 will be crushed all at the same time, which would include Persia/Iran, who has their purpose set at destroying Israel and the USA. With a weak US president, Iran, China, and North Korea may feel confident in pursuing their nefarious aims and bring the world into a total war, whereas Daniel 2:45 will be completed, and the kingdom built without hands will be set up and ruled from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-18). China has a 2 million man army and a 1/2 million man reserve and the largest navy in the world. This all gives Iran a false sense of security. A physically and morally weak US president can create a large initial defeat, such as with Pearl Harbor, but it only awakens a sleeping lion. China has shiny equipment whose design was stole from others, and yet inferior, and weak spit shined men in their armed forces, as shown at the India border.

Post Reply