Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

[mms20102]

Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.

23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn

24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned

With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death

(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)

The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326

Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote

But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/

His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church

What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.

so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently

He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].

https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.

[Mithrae]

Your allusion to the 10 horns is too vague to determine which kings you are pointing out. It seemed more like throwing mud at a wall.

Unlike the OP? Arbitrarily picking out ten of the emperors to claim Constantine as the 10th horn? If nothing else this thread illustrates how futile it is to imagine that any reliable knowledge can be gained from biblical 'prophecy': The vague symbolism can be 'interpreted' pretty much however you want and adjusted to fit any circumstances whatsoever.

But supposing for the sake of argument that some interpretations are a little less arbitrary than others, I'd say that the OP does fairly well, except its purported identification of the 10 horns. Except for some references to "the end," the prophecies in Daniel seem to refer to events in the period around the 6th century BCE to 1st century CE:
- Ch 9, a five-century countdown beginning from the 6th or 5th century BCE
- Ch 8, a broad outline of the Persian and Greek kingdoms leading into the Seleucid persecution
- Ch 11, a more detailed focus on the Greek kingdoms of the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE
- Ch 2, beginning with Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon covers subsequent kingdoms (the iron being either the Seleucids or Romans)
- Ch 7, a more detailed focus on those four 'metallic' kingdoms

If (as scholars generally suppose) some or all of Daniel was written in the Maccabean period then the iron kingdom/fourth beast would presumably be the Seleucid kingdom. Alternatively, given the assumption of divine foreknowledge and our understanding of later history, a case could be made for them being Rome instead - and hence from chapter 2, the small rock which grows into a mountain over the whole earth would be the 'kingdom of God' begun by Jesus. Under the latter view, all five prophecies (supposedly written around the time of the first temple's destruction and second one's construction) also focus significantly on the temple itself:
- Ch 11, focusing on the temple's desecration by Antiochus IV Epiphanes
- Ch 9, focusing on the temple's destruction by Vespasian and his son Titus (and in Christian theology, its replacement by the 'anointed one' who was cut off)
- Ch 8, focusing on the desecration by Antiochus
- Ch 2, culminating in that 'kingdom of God' which was to replace the temple
- Ch 7...?

If the iron kingdom/fourth beast represents Rome (which alongside the more secular Seleucid interpretation would be the best/least arbitrary interpretation I know of), then the most obvious or least arbitrary interpretation of the ten horns would be Rome's first ten rulers after either A) Rome's final conquest of the Hellenic world with the occupation of Alexandria in ~30 BCE or B) the complete subjugation of Greece itself in the First Mithridatic War ~85 BCE. In the former case the ten would be:
1 - Augustus
2 - Tiberius
3 - Caligula
4 - Claudius
5 - Nero
6 - Galba (69 CE)
7 - Otho (69 CE)
8 - Vitellius (69 CE)
9 - Vespasian
10 - Titus

The general who destroyed the Jewish temple would thus be the '10th horn.' Taking the horns instead as the first ten Caesars (ie, including Julius) would make Vespasian the tenth; the general who led at the start of the Jewish War before delegating command to his son Titus, but perhaps more interesting the ultimate victor of the Year of the Four Emperors who essentially replaced three other 'horns.'



(For fans of the Revelation of John, Vespasian is quite convincingly the 7th horn when those three less significant rulers are omitted. Of course, while there are substantial difficulties in making Daniel 'fit' with history as any kind of genuine prophecy, Revelation is flat-out, unequivocally wrong in its repeated reassurance to the seven churches that Jesus would return "soon," so 'interpretation' of Revelation is even more fraught with dubious assumptions and wildly differing theories even than Daniel! Remarkably, its disputed inclusion into the 'official' canon by some later bishops and publishers obviously causes many Christians to ignore that reality, suggesting their devotion to the traditions of men over and above their own reason and respect for God.)

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't understand, who or what does the 8th head represent and why do you thus conclude?

The 8th head would represent the demon spirit of Julius Caesar (Revelation 14:9-10)

Okay and is "the demon spirit of Julius Caesar" an individual? A group? An institution?

[JehovahsWitness]

...Revelation is flat-out, unequivocally wrong in its repeated reassurance to the seven churches that Jesus would return "soon,"

HOW SOON IS A LENGTH OF STRING?

Rev. 1.1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John

Rev 1.3 Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near

Rev. 22.7 Look! I am coming quickly . Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll.

Rev. 22.12 Look! I am coming quickly , and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work.

Rev 22.20 The one who bears witness of these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly .

Rom. 16.20 For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly .

Prophecy is effectively "history written in advance"; the book of REVELATION for example could be described as symbolic prophecy. The introduction of the book of REVELATION has John, the writer, claim to be projected forward in time to what he calls "The Lords day" (see Rev 1 verse 10). From this projected future standpoint, all the prophetic events can be described as coming "quickly" , "shortly" "near" or "soon" from a divine perspective (Compare Romans 16:20 also a prophetic pronouncement)

To illustrate: Imagine someone is projected forward in time to the year 4071. Standing as he is in that future time he sees a car hurtling towards him at a great speed. Would he not say the car is coming "quickly" and is "soon " to hit him?

Like a length of string, soon and quickly are entirely relative. It is an assumption that in scripture those those words are always in relation to the writing of the book in question when they are often in relation to the events being described therein.





JW

What are we tto understand from prophecies that indicate they will be fulfilled "soon"?
viewtopic.php?p=1032146#p1032146

Should the prophecies of Revelation be limited to first century and earlier?
viewtopic.php?p=905233#p905233

To learn more please go to other posts related to

THE SECOND COMING * , "DELAYS "DEBUNKED and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

[mms20102]

[Replying to Mithrae in post #22]


ok let me point out the guidelines I followed for my conclusion and the problems you had.
First you have to remember the vision is speaking about persecutions in the holy land ( Jerusalem ).
Second many Jewish and Christian Theologians referred to the beasts as I mentioned so its not my interpretation.
Third Constantine was not the 10th King or emperor but rather than that the 11th.
Fourth non of the leaders you mentioned accepted Christians and non of them killed 3 kings.
yet you said my explanation is " Arbitrarily " without challenging it or point out the deficiency I had in my explanation.

If nothing else this thread illustrates how futile it is to imagine that any reliable knowledge can be gained from biblical 'prophecy'

The bible itself has some real prophecies and some corruption at the same time we can't just ignore the whole bible just because of some errors.

The vague symbolism can be 'interpreted' pretty much however you want and adjusted to fit any circumstances whatsoever.

Well that's why I asked JW what are the basis of his/her illustration ? because I know that JWs believe that the writers of the bible didn't know its meaning and that's why different meanings can be obtained through time

except its purported identification of the 10 horns.

The ten horns were chosen based on Historical facts and I pointed out the very famous Hakham illustration on whom could be those ten.

Nero was the first to unleash the fury of imperial Rome against the saints.

Diocletian instigated the last and most furious of the ten waves of persecution.

https://procinwarn.com/nero-and-diocletian/

So I just want to let you know its a research based conclusion not just an arbitrary or random selection from history to fit my personal desires and between I'm not Christian

[mms20102]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #18]

Regarding the 8th king? I will of you will... You didn't offer basis for your interpretation that the 8th King represents Julius Caesar so I simply responded in type.

Well I didn't mention any 8th King and I spoke about my basis in the OP and the post above replying to Mithrae

[2ndpillar2]

I don't understand, who or what does the 8th head represent and why do you thus conclude?

The 8th head would represent the demon spirit of Julius Caesar (Revelation 14:9-10)

Okay and is "the demon spirit of Julius Caesar" an individual? A group? An institution?

The "demon spirit" resides in living flesh, such as mankind, or swine. In this case, it would reside in Emperors/dictators/Caesars, who rule the earth by means of a stroke of the pen for an hour each (Revelation 17:12), such as Czars, Kaisers, Stalin, Hitler, and our present dictator in chief, known as sleepy Joe. This all precedes "Har-Magedon". Not that it takes much to lead sleepy Joe astray, or the other self confident kings being led to their demise at Har-Magedon, the valley north of Jerusalem between the mountain and the plains. Iran would be at the top of the list (Jeremiah 49:36), being as Elam is the site of Iran's/Perisa's nuclear sites.

Revelation 16:14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

[2ndpillar2]

... Did not the British throw the German Kaiser/Roman Caesar (iron) and the Turks (Edom) (clay)(Daniel 2:34) ....

We have another understanding of the "iron" and the clay feet of Daniel 2.



JW

Your church's "understanding", seems to lack credibility. The Roman Caesar, the 5th head of the beast of Revelation 17, part of the legs of iron, is reflected in the historical Kaiser, and Czar of Russia and Germany, with the 3rd Reich (3rd Roman empire) being portrayed in the Hitler led Nazi party (National Socialist party). It is the US and Britain which helped free Judea from the Ottomans, Germans, and the Russians, along with their Muslim partners (red clay of Edom). While the present weak U.S. president seems to be intertwined with the Socialist/Marxist movement, that is necessary to give the rest of the heads of the beast leeway to come out against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-2 & Joel 3:1-2), so they can all be crushed at the same time (Daniel 2). While the U.S. and Britain will be "chastised" in the coming "Jacob's distress", it will not be "destroyed completely", as will other nations (Jeremiah 30:8-11). At that time, they shall "serve the LORD their God, and David their king" as better described in Ezekiel 36 & 37 & Zechariah 14. At that time, the "strangers"/foreigners will serve Jacob (Isaiah 14:1-2). As for the JWs, it is the 12 tribes of Israel who are among the 144,000 of Revelation 7, not some Gentile interlopers. The "nations"/Gentiles that survive the "day of the LORD" will have to confess that their "fathers" were the purveyors of lies.

[2ndpillar2]

I don't understand, who or what does the 8th head represent and why do you thus conclude?

The 8th head would represent the demon spirit of Julius Caesar (Revelation 14:9-10)

Okay and is "the demon spirit of Julius Caesar" an individual? A group? An institution?

The "demon spirit", would be a demon spirit, which leads the kings of the world into battle (Revelation 7:14). The problem with the JWs, would they apparently follow the "demon spirit" of the "false prophet", a guy named Paul (Revelation 7:13). The destination is the same, "destruction" (Matthew 7:13).

Revelation 7:14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

[JehovahsWitness]

So you believe the 8th "king" pictures / represents a particular demon?


We do not believe the scarlet beast has eight HEADS only 7. The Scarlet BEAST itself represents THE UNITED NATIONS

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , THE GENTILE TIMES and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ



RELATED POSTS

What does the SCARLET beast of Revelation 13 & 17 represent?
viewtopic.php?p=1018325#p1018325

[2ndpillar2]

I don't understand, who or what does the 8th head represent and why do you thus conclude?

The 8th head would represent the demon spirit of Julius Caesar (Revelation 14:9-10)

Okay and is "the demon spirit of Julius Caesar" an individual? A group? An institution?

The "demon spirit", would be a demon spirit, which leads the kings of the world into battle (Revelation 7:14). Almighty.

So you believe the 8th "king" pictures / represents a particular demon?


We believe he represents THE UNITED NATIONS

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , THE GENTILE TIMES and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

The eighth head (Revelation 17:11-12) represents "the beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth". And he also has 10 horns, who will "receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour". All the heads of the beast rule by the authority given to them by the "dragon" (Revelation 13:4). The 7th head, who was to come following the period of the 10 horns of the 5th beast, known as the 6th beast (Daniel 7:24), was Constantine, who was to "intend to make alterations in times and in law", as with respect to the multiple gods, known as the Trinity Doctrine, and in his by decree, making the day of rest the day of his sun god, Sol Invictus, called Sunday. His Roman church still reigns in Rome, and has yet to "fall" at this time (Isaiah 22:15-25). The remnant of the beast is with respect to their demon spirits, which today, lead the daughters of Babylon, who sit on the beast (Revelation 17:3), as well as they manipulate the leaders of the nations (Revelation 16:12-14).