Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.
23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn
24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned
With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death
(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)
The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326
Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote
But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/
His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church
What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.
so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently
He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].
https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.
Last edited by mms20102 on Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #31

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I ought to leave you Biblebods to have your fun, but the fact is that the Daniel visions and the matter of Constantine, particularly his presentation by the Church as a miraculous convert who was given a miraculous victory by God which was all part of His Plan to use Rome to grow his Church, rather appeals to me.

The thing about Daniel is that it is retrospective history of the 2nd c BC (as i recall), and not a prophecy or prediction from the Babylon of the 5th century. The fact is that the earliest predictions of Babylon and its' fall to Cyrus is not too reliable and I have joined in a lot of discussion with some inventive rewriting of the history we have in order to make it fit Daniel. On the other hand, though cast in prophetic form, the later stuff about the messiah can be matched event by event to the Ptolemaic wars. The events around the looting of the Temple treasure and cutting off the Messiah by the Seleucid king is particularly interesting. If the match of the prophecy to the history is right, this 'Messiah' (it only means an anointed, king or High priest) seems to have been Onias III. We can even date when it was written by the date the predictions go wrong. Thus it puts the document into context - the rise of Zealots and the start of the Maccabean revolt. This prophecy was a polemical document intended to assure the zealots that God had promised that they would win. And didn't it cause celebrations when they did. Still celebrated in the Jewish feast of Dedication.

Now as to Constantine, he was a general (in Eboracum, Brittania, or York, England) and like quite a few others, he made a bid for the imperial throne. As the 'Miracle' tells, he saw a sign of the cross, used crosses as insignia and won the battle. He became Emperor and made Christianity the religion of Rome. Mere matter of history.

But there are archaeological problems (aren't there always?). The arch of Constantine, built to celebrate the Battle of Milvian bridge, shows no crosses. No christian symbols. No indication of Christianity of any kind. What is equally bothersome is that never at any time did he evidenced any conversion to Christianity. He rather perpetuated the Imperial Roman pagan cult with himself identified with the sun -God. Now it is true that his old min, Helena was a Christian and (apart from sheer political pragmatism) he decriminalised Christianity. She then toddled off on a grand tour picking up faked holy relics like that absurd 'crucifix nail' which looks like it had been sawn off the top of an iron railing. And this is now the patron saint of archaeologists.

With this 'Corrected' view of just the kind of political animal Constantine was, we can put the Council of Nikea and the part played by Eusebius into perspective. This was a not a true believer like James I producing God's True Bible, but a ruler trying to decide a case between squabbling religious factions, just as he might have to rule between Jews and Greeks. And I gather he left it to Eusebius (who Was a Christian) to produce an Authorised Bible amended to reflect the views on the side he approved, and ban all the others and eliminate all those who did not follow the State - approved religion and their Gnostic gospels with them.

Now back to you interpreters of the Bible and your horny UK theories.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #32

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:34 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... Did not the British throw the German Kaiser/Roman Caesar (iron) and the Turks (Edom) (clay)(Daniel 2:34) ....

We have another understanding of the "iron" and the clay feet of Daniel 2.

Image



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Nice pictures, but it has nothing to do with reality. When the JWs were coming up with their doctrines in the 1880s, Great Britain was apparently ruling the seas, but time has gone on, and Great Britain is no longer great, although they did pay back the money, they borrowed for the US to pay for their wars, it was the U.S. combined with Britain that was the mountain/kingdom that crushed the Germans along with their Ottoman allies in the middle east in 1918, 4 years after your supposed "kingdom of heaven". It was the British who turned over Jerusalem to the Zionist in 1948, whereas Judah and Jerusalem could be "revived" (Joel 3:1-2), and the judgment of the nations/gentiles could be set up (Zechariah 14). The JWs are woefully behind the times in regard to history and how it pertains to Scripture.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #33

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:34 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... Did not the British throw the German Kaiser/Roman Caesar (iron) and the Turks (Edom) (clay)(Daniel 2:34) ....

We have another understanding of the "iron" and the clay feet of Daniel 2.

Image



JW


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I hate to be the carrier of bad tidings, but no one crushed Britain in 1914, and the British crushed the German Kaiser (Caesar/iron) and the Ottomans (Muslims/clay) in the 1918 at the battle of Megiddo, in order to be able to concede Judea to the Zionist, by way of the Balfour Declaration, to start the process of the reviving of Jerusalem and Judah (Joel 3:1-2), and set in place the judgment of the nations. The "stone cut without hands", was not to just crush the iron and clay, but the "iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold" (Daniel 2:45). That hasn't happened. Britain was victor of both WWI and WWII. The defeated were the Ottomans/clay, the Germans/iron, and the Italians, who want to be iron, by Mussolini calling himself Julius Caesar. Japan, the land of the rising sun, with their own emperor, were also sun worshippers, and were defeated as well. The crushing of all the metals by the "stone cut without hands" has yet to occur. Judah crushed the iron/Russia and clay/Islamist in the 1967 and 73 Israeli wars, but they have not yet crushed Persia/Iran, or the other kingdoms of metals.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #34

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:20 pm I ought to leave you Biblebods to have your fun, but the fact is that the Daniel visions and the matter of Constantine, particularly his presentation by the Church as a miraculous convert who was given a miraculous victory by God which was all part of His Plan to use Rome to grow his Church, rather appeals to me.

The thing about Daniel is that it is retrospective history of the 2nd c BC (as i recall), and not a prophecy or prediction from the Babylon of the 5th century. The fact is that the earliest predictions of Babylon and its' fall to Cyrus is not too reliable and I have joined in a lot of discussion with some inventive rewriting of the history we have in order to make it fit Daniel. On the other hand, though cast in prophetic form, the later stuff about the messiah can be matched event by event to the Ptolemaic wars. The events around the looting of the Temple treasure and cutting off the Messiah by the Seleucid king is particularly interesting. If the match of the prophecy to the history is right, this 'Messiah' (it only means an anointed, king or High priest) seems to have been Onias III. We can even date when it was written by the date the predictions go wrong. Thus it puts the document into context - the rise of Zealots and the start of the Maccabean revolt. This prophecy was a polemical document intended to assure the zealots that God had promised that they would win. And didn't it cause celebrations when they did. Still celebrated in the Jewish feast of Dedication.

Now as to Constantine, he was a general (in Eboracum, Brittania, or York, England) and like quite a few others, he made a bid for the imperial throne. As the 'Miracle' tells, he saw a sign of the cross, used crosses as insignia and won the battle. He became Emperor and made Christianity the religion of Rome. Mere matter of history.

But there are archaeological problems (aren't there always?). The arch of Constantine, built to celebrate the Battle of Milvian bridge, shows no crosses. No christian symbols. No indication of Christianity of any kind. What is equally bothersome is that never at any time did he evidenced any conversion to Christianity. He rather perpetuated the Imperial Roman pagan cult with himself identified with the sun -God. Now it is true that his old min, Helena was a Christian and (apart from sheer political pragmatism) he decriminalised Christianity. She then toddled off on a grand tour picking up faked holy relics like that absurd 'crucifix nail' which looks like it had been sawn off the top of an iron railing. And this is now the patron saint of archaeologists.

With this 'Corrected' view of just the kind of political animal Constantine was, we can put the Council of Nikea and the part played by Eusebius into perspective. This was a not a true believer like James I producing God's True Bible, but a ruler trying to decide a case between squabbling religious factions, just as he might have to rule between Jews and Greeks. And I gather he left it to Eusebius (who Was a Christian) to produce an Authorised Bible amended to reflect the views on the side he approved, and ban all the others and eliminate all those who did not follow the State - approved religion and their Gnostic gospels with them.

Now back to you interpreters of the Bible and your horny UK theories.
Well Eusebius was an Arian leader, and Roman court historian, who altered the original vision at the Battle of Milvian Bridge. The original vision was from Constantine's god, Sol Invictus, who told Constantine to go and conquer under the sign of the cross, an ancient pagan symbol. The next year, in 313, Constantine produced a coin with the image of Sol Invictus on one side, and with Constantine on the other. While Eusebius probably produced a 50-bible edition, which is missing today, it was Athanasius, a counter Arian, who produced the NT canon, which is in general usage today. It was Athanasius who fought for the false Trinity doctrine at the Council of Nicaea against the Arians. According to the Arian, Eusebius, Constantine was baptized on his death bed. According to Eusebius, his history did not always reflect the truth, and he wrote supposedly for the good of the church. Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, which produced the false dogma of the Trinity, and decreed that Sunday, the day of his sun god, Sol Invictus, would be a day of rest in 321 AD. Both done in fulfillment of Daniel 7:25, where as the "another" king, would attempt to make alterations in "times and in law" and his "dominion", under the power of his Roman church, would be "destroyed" after time, times and half a time (Daniel 2:25-26), at which time the kingdom of the "saints" will take over.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #35

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:50 pm
I hate to be the carrier of bad tidings, but no one crushed Britain in 1914, and the British crushed the German Kaiser (Caesar/iron) and the Ottomans (Muslims/clay) in the 1918 at the battle of Megiddo, in order to be able to concede Judea to the Zionist, by way of the Balfour Declaration, to start the process of the reviving of Jerusalem and Judah (Joel 3:1-2), and set in place the judgment of the nations. The "stone cut without hands", was not to just crush the iron and clay, but the "iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold" (Daniel 2:45). That hasn't happened. Britain was victor of both WWI and WWII. The defeated were the Ottomans/clay, the Germans/iron, and the Italians, who want to be iron, by Mussolini calling himself Julius Caesar. Japan, the land of the rising sun, with their own emperor, were also sun worshippers, and were defeated as well. The crushing of all the metals by the "stone cut without hands" has yet to occur. Judah crushed the iron/Russia and clay/Islamist in the 1967 and 73 Israeli wars, but they have not yet crushed Persia/Iran, or the other kingdoms of metals.

Why should any of that be considered "bad tidings" for Jehovahs Witnesses ?
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #36

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:12 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:50 pm
I hate to be the carrier of bad tidings, but no one crushed Britain in 1914, and the British crushed the German Kaiser (Caesar/iron) and the Ottomans (Muslims/clay) in the 1918 at the battle of Megiddo, in order to be able to concede Judea to the Zionist, by way of the Balfour Declaration, to start the process of the reviving of Jerusalem and Judah (Joel 3:1-2), and set in place the judgment of the nations. The "stone cut without hands", was not to just crush the iron and clay, but the "iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold" (Daniel 2:45). That hasn't happened. Britain was victor of both WWI and WWII. The defeated were the Ottomans/clay, the Germans/iron, and the Italians, who want to be iron, by Mussolini calling himself Julius Caesar. Japan, the land of the rising sun, with their own emperor, were also sun worshippers, and were defeated as well. The crushing of all the metals by the "stone cut without hands" has yet to occur. Judah crushed the iron/Russia and clay/Islamist in the 1967 and 73 Israeli wars, but they have not yet crushed Persia/Iran, or the other kingdoms of metals.

Why should any of that be considered "bad tidings" for Jehovahs Witnesses ?
A false prophet is exposed by a single false prophesy. According to your visual, the US and Britain, portrayed as feet of iron and clay, were crushed by the stone made without hands. The feet of iron and clay would be portrayed as the 8th head of the beast with 10 horns, and the 8th head of the beast was "one that was" "is not" and is the 8th (Revelation 17:11). This was written during the period of the 6th head of the beast, the one that "is". The U.S. is not a dictatorship, and does not represent any previous beast, prior to the Augusts Caesars of the time of the writing of Revelation 17. The previous beast/dictator to the Augustus Caesars, was Julius Caesar, the 5th head of the beast, who was replicated by the Kaiser/Caesar of Germany, the Czar/Caesar of Russia, and the Julius Caesar of Itali, Mussolini, which would represent the iron of Rome. This was mixed with the red clay of Edom/Essau, whose home is the area of Petra, the original home of the Muslim religion until around the year 70 of Mhmd. The iron/Russia and clay/Islam feet were individually crushed by Judah in the 1967 Israeli war. The "nations" (all the nations of Daniel 2:45) will be crushed upon the rock of Jerusalem per Zechariah 14, after Jerusalem and Judah have been revived per Joel 3:1-2. Jerusalem was revived through the efforts of Britain crushing Germany/iron, and the Ottomans/clay in 1918 at the battle of Megiddo, which is located at Har-Magedon (Armageddon). Where is your 1914 JW kingdom except in your head? There was no son of man coming in the clouds in 1914 (Matthew 24:30-32, and there are no 144,000 JWs sitting in some hot air balloon in the sky.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #37

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2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:35 pm Where is your 1914 JW kingdom except in your head?

Have you forgotten Jesus words?
LUKE 17:20 New Living Translation

One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will the Kingdom of God come?” Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God can’t be detected by visible signs
.
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #38

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JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:01 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:35 pm Where is your 1914 JW kingdom except in your head?

Have you forgotten Jesus words?
LUKE 17:20 New Living Translation

One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will the Kingdom of God come?” Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God can’t be detected by visible signs
.
And who is Luke, but apparently an associate of the false prophet Paul, and per Luke 1:1-3, he is a teller of other people's tales, and a first-person witness to nothing. According to Yeshua, his disciples were to say the "kingdom of heaven is at hand when they raised the dead and healed the sick. That is the Spiritual kingdom of heaven which is of power and spirit and can affect detectable miracles. The physical kingdom of heaven is based around the gathering of the stick of Judah and the stick of Ephraim to be combined onto the land given to Jacob, under the kingship of David (Ezekiel 37).

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #39

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:34 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... Did not the British throw the German Kaiser/Roman Caesar (iron) and the Turks (Edom) (clay)(Daniel 2:34) ....

We have another understanding of the "iron" and the clay feet of Daniel 2.

Image



JW


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]

That was not exactly the illustration I mentioned, but it is close enough. The problem with your interpretation is that it doesn't meet the narrative of the prophets, nor with history itself. Your illustration shows 5 beasts, the time before Revelation was written, during the period of the 6th head, and apparently having the U.S. as feet of clay, whereas we are at the "end of the age", during the 8th head of the beast who has 10 horns. You get 10 points for having a pretty illustration, but no points for having an accurate illustration. It was the axis powers in WWII which conquered Germany, which included Russia, which was a remnant of Rome, as in Russia had a Caesar, in the form of a Czar. In WWII, you have Rome crushing Rome. It was the Russians who destroyed Germany's Berlin, while the Americans drank beer and watched. And the foremost daughter of Babylon, the Roman church, still sits on the remnant power of the beast of Rome, situated in the city of Rome. I don't expect the U.N. to throw her into the sea. The power of this time is not the U.N. but comes in the form of the elites, a collaboration of Banks, Techs, Media, and politicians, which is funded by Bill Gates, and called the World Economic Council, which meets at Davos, and I expect them to fail in their endeavors. Their Progressive humanist godless agenda is built on the back of Marx, and while they may wish to throw religion into the sea, it is they who will be crushed, and Babylon will be thrown into the sea by a great angel.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:10 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:34 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... Did not the British throw the German Kaiser/Roman Caesar (iron) and the Turks (Edom) (clay)(Daniel 2:34) ....

We have another understanding of the "iron" and the clay feet of Daniel 2.

Image



JW


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*The Return of Christ
That was not exactly the illustration I mentioned, but it is close enough.

Not really, the iron of Daniels image dream corresponds to the 7th head of the scarlet beast (the SCARLET beast of Revelation has 7 heads not 8). I have never said that the 8th "king" is the Anglo-american world power nor have I presented and imagery to that effect.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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