Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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mms20102
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Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.
23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn
24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned
With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death
(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)
The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326
Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote
But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/
His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church
What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.
so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently
He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].
https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.
Last edited by mms20102 on Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #41

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:44 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:10 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:34 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am... Did not the British throw the German Kaiser/Roman Caesar (iron) and the Turks (Edom) (clay)(Daniel 2:34) ....

We have another understanding of the "iron" and the clay feet of Daniel 2.

Image


JW


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That was not exactly the illustration I mentioned, but it is close enough.

Not really, the iron of Daniels image dream corresponds to the 7th head of the scarlet beast (the SCARLET beast of Revelation has 7 heads not 8). I have never said that the 8th "king" is the Anglo-american world power nor have I presented and imagery to that effect.


JW
Your illustration has the feet of the statue, represented as Britain and the U.S. The feet of iron and clay are the ending of the beast of Daniel 2, which would be the 8th head of Revelation 17:11, which was and is not, and therefore one of the 5 preceding heads of Revelation 17:11. The 7th head would be an intermediate head, and as stated in Daniel 7:25, would endeavor to change the time and the law, as was done by Roman Emperor Constantine, by changing the day of the Sabbath, the day of rest, and by changing from one God into 3 gods, to better fit the image of the gods of Babylon, and his soldier's god, Sol Invictus.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #42

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:32 am The feet of iron and clay are the ending of the beast of Daniel 2, which would be the 8th head of Revelation 17:11, ...
We do not agree. We do not believe that the feet of iron and clay correspond to and so-called "8th head" of Revelation 17:11.



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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #43

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:06 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:32 am The feet of iron and clay are the ending of the beast of Daniel 2, which would be the 8th head of Revelation 17:11, ...
We do not agree. We do not believe that the feet of iron and clay correspond to and so-called "8th head" of Revelation 17:11.



JW
All the metals and clay were crushed by the stone made without hands immediately before the setting up of the kingdom. The 8th head was the last head, who was, is not, and is the eighth. (Daniel 2:44-45) Your illustration shows the U.S. and Britain as the feet of iron and clay, which is wrong in so many ways. Your timing, kingdoms, and results are not in alignment with the Law or the OT prophets. But then again, as is stated in Daniel 12:10, the "wicked"/lawless will not "understand". The 8th head is one who "was" and is "not", and is now dead. He comes back as a demon spirit (Revelation 16:13) and works through the current leaders/kings. Mussolini was not Julius Caesar as he claimed. He was simply a man ruled by a demon spirit of Julius Caesar. The national socialist dictators of today, are simply reincarnations of the one who "was", and that was Julius Caesar, and they will wind up be gathered into the valley of Judgment (Joel 3:2) & (Revelation 16:15) for a day of judgment. They are men and women who undermine Republics and turn them into dictatorships. Apparently, their nemesis in today's news, are the truck drivers.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #44

Post by Diagoras »

Mithrae wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:12 pm If (as scholars generally suppose) some or all of Daniel was written in the Maccabean period then the iron kingdom/fourth beast would presumably be the Seleucid kingdom.
There's an interesting article here, which supports that view. The reference to interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a giant statue made of different metals, the succession of kingdoms after the Babylonians fits with the political environment at the time.

Indeed, as the article concludes:
Daniel was, as a book, really responding to the political crisis of Antiochus Epiphanes and the political forces of war

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #45

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:30 pm
Mithrae wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:12 pm If (as scholars generally suppose) some or all of Daniel was written in the Maccabean period then the iron kingdom/fourth beast would presumably be the Seleucid kingdom.
There's an interesting article here, which supports that view. The reference to interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a giant statue made of different metals, the succession of kingdoms after the Babylonians fits with the political environment at the time.

Indeed, as the article concludes:
Daniel was, as a book, really responding to the political crisis of Antiochus Epiphanes and the political forces of war
Daniel, as a book addressed Antiochus in the form of a "Leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back (phalanx); and the beast had four heads", as with respect to Alexander and his 4 generals being the four heads (Daniel 7:6). Daniel as a book also showed a following beast (Daniel 7:7-14), which described Rome, which was to be finally replaced by one like a "son of man" (Matthew 24:30). The Greeks of Antiochus were crushed by the Romans, and the Romans took over Jerusalem. The Roman church still occupies parts of Jerusalem until the son of man returns.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #46

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:06 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:32 am The feet of iron and clay are the ending of the beast of Daniel 2, which would be the 8th head of Revelation 17:11, ...
We do not agree. We do not believe that the feet of iron and clay correspond to and so-called "8th head" of Revelation 17:11.

JW
Then who is the 8th head and the 10 horns of the 8th head? And if the kingdom of the JWs is in heaven since 1918, fulfilling the "kingdom" of Daniel 2:44-45, where is the stone made without hands which crushed the feet of iron and clay (US and Britain), to establish that 1918 JW kingdom in heaven?

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #47

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:40 am
... who is the 8th head and the 10 horns of the 8th head?


WHAT DO THE TEN HORNS ON THE SCARLET BEAST REPRESENT (REV 17:3)?



The "ten horns" represent all the present day political powers that give support to the United Nations.

Image



Who or what is represented by the 8th King of REV 17:11?
viewtopic.php?p=1056167#p1056167

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION
*The Return of Christ
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #48

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:40 am... if the kingdom of the JWs is in heaven since [1914], .... where is the stone made without hands which crushed the feet of iron and clay (US and Britain)...?

DANIEL CHAPTER 2 VERSE 44

Image


The mountain represents Jehovah's universal souvereignty, the stone represents the MESSIANIC KINGDOM which became a seperate entity as an expression of that souvereignty, in 1914. Obviously the stone's creation (The estalisment of the Messianic kingdom) must precede and action it takes, the Kingdom can't destroy anything before it exists.



We NOTE that although the stone crushed the feet, the entire image (representing the succession of world governments ) was destoryed. Thus all these human government on earth at this time will be destoyed not just the anglo-American world power.


When will Gods kingdom (established since 1914) destroy all human governments replacing them all as the one world government?


  • Jesus said no one on earth can know the day and the hour of that momentous event, but Jehovahs Witnesses believe all indications are that event is very close!







JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION
*The Return of Christ
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #49

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:19 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:40 am
... who is the 8th head and the 10 horns of the 8th head?


WHAT DO THE TEN HORNS ON THE SCARLET BEAST REPRESENT (REV 17:3)?



The "ten horns" represent all the present day political powers that give support to the United Nations.

Image



Who or what is represented by the 8th King of REV 17:11?
viewtopic.php?p=1056167#p1056167

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION
*The Return of Christ
The woman sitting on the "scarlet beast" (Rev 17:3) with seven heads and ten horns was Babylon the Great, and the first head of the beast represented Babylon, and the UN is not represented by Babylon. The 8th head represented one of the 7 heads, who was and is not, would not include the UN. And the UN is not represented by ten horns, and has a 15-member security council, therefore not a 10 headed beast. Your narrative hits wide of the mark. The five permanent members of the UN security Council are the so called winners of WWII.
Last edited by 2ndpillar2 on Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #50

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:54 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:40 am... if the kingdom of the JWs is in heaven since [1914], .... where is the stone made without hands which crushed the feet of iron and clay (US and Britain)...?





The mountain represents Jehovah's universal souvereignty, the stone represents the MESSIANIC KINGDOM which became a seperate entity as an expression of that souvereignty, in 1914. Obviously the stone's creation (The estalisment of the Messianic kingdom) must precede and action it takes, the Kingdom can't destroy anything before it exists.
We NOTE that although the stone crushed the feet, the entire image (representing the succession of world governments ) was destoryed. Thus all these human government on earth at this time will be destoyed not just the anglo-American world power.


When will Gods kingdom (established since 1914) destroy all human governments replacing them all as the one world government?
  • Jesus said no one on earth can know the day and the hour of that momentous event, but Jehovahs Witnesses believe all indications are that event is very close!
The "kingdom" existed in the time of Yeshua, and the authority/sovereignty was used to cast out demons and raise the dead (Matthew 10:7-8). The Lord God used the heads of the beast to destroy other heads of the beasts, and to pass judgment on Judah and Ephraim (Hosea 5). Babylon was crushed by the Meads and Persians, the Persians were crushed by the Greeks, and the Greeks were crushed by the Romans, and in 1918 the Kaiser/Caesar Roman empire (iron), combined with the Muslim Ottoman empire (clay), was crushed by means of the economic and industrial power of the US, setting up the restoration of Judah and Jerusalem (Joel 3:1-2), and the eventual judgment of the nations. While the US and Britain include the dispersed of the lost tribes of Israel/Jacob, they will also have judgment passed upon them, but they will survive (Jeremiah 30:7-11).

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