Hiding The Truth

[William]

There are instances where biblical writ tells us that "God" [through various mediums] hides the whole truth.

Is hiding the whole truth [about something] and thus not fully informing those who come in contact with something which not only claims to be the truth, but also claims to hide the whole truth about that particular claim of truth, a good thing to do?

[Haven]

...as there are many who want to receive it yet never get it. That's a fact as there are several on this very site...

Interesting. Can you give one example who has not received, even though he wants and what is not received? Why do you think the person has wanted to receive?

How about me? I very much wanted a divine revelation about 10 years ago, when I was questioning my Christian faith (this was just before I joined DC&R for the first time). The revelation never came, but the evidence that Christianity was incoherent came in droves.

What do you make of that, 1213? You've seen my posts over the years, and you've seen how my perspectives have shifted. Do you think I'm lying, mistaken, or giving an earnest account?

In kindness and respect,
Haven

[William]

The clue is in Jesus referring to The Secrets of The Fathers Kingdom, which are not recorded in any Bible.

It obviously doesn't matter if you or I or anyone else have a problem with an invisible hard to find Creator of this Creation.

How do you know Jesus was speaking the truth, based on that statement alone? Have you considered the possibility that he may have been mistaken or even deliberately attempting to deceive? Have you weighed the possibility that his words may have been distorted or misrepresented by the authors of the gospels (Jesus did not write them)?

I don't know just by reading about it, that he was or wasn't speaking the truth. I do know that his advice was to seek the evidence therein and if it turned out to be able to be experienced as real, then yes. I then know that Jesus was speaking the truth.
As far as words about experiences go, I acknowledge that these can be distorted or misrepresented or even lied about and so keep this in mind in relation to reporting of my own experiences.

Also, this isn’t a personal thing for me, at least not anymore. My frustration at being unable to believe in Christianity has long since passed, and my philosophy has evolved very much since those days as a college kid, trying to distinguish the truth from the dogma my parents and church taught me.

Surely a necessary step in the process of being 'born again'...don't let the "Christian" labels dissuade you from that quest...in this case it just means "drop every notion you were ever given and start again from scratch"

Today, I find it absurd to base spirituality or faith on a person (including any being that is personal in the way we are—theistic gods, aliens, creators, person-spirits, etc.) rather than on a Concept, an Idea, a Connection that permeates existence. Obviously this is beyond the scope of this thread, but I’d be happy to start a new thread in Religion and Philosophy to discuss it .

Sure. It is an interesting subject...

[Haven]

It obviously doesn't matter if you or I or anyone else have a problem with an invisible hard to find Creator of this Creation.

That is true.

The difference is, I wouldn't worship such a malevolent, trickster entity. It would be irrelevant to me. You on the other hand, find this Creator worthy of worship. This is the heart of our disagreement, William.

How do you know Jesus was speaking the truth, based on that statement alone? Have you considered the possibility that he may have been mistaken or even deliberately attempting to deceive? Have you weighed the possibility that his words may have been distorted or misrepresented by the authors of the gospels (Jesus did not write them)?

I don't know just by reading about it, that he was or wasn't speaking the truth. I do know that his advice was to seek the evidence therein and if it turned out to be able to be experienced as real, then yes. I then know that Jesus was speaking the truth.

Where was Jesus ever recorded as saying that? Do you have a source?

Surely a necessary step in the process of being 'born again'...don't let the "Christian" labels dissuade you from that quest...in this case it just means "drop every notion you were ever given and start again from scratch"

Thanks so much for the encouragement, William, but unfortunately I'll have to say no thanks? Unlike my younger self, I have no interest in being "born again" or believing in Jesus / the Abrahamic god / Christianity. Furthermore, I also do not want to abandon my education and academic knowledge before analyzing religious claims.

Just, I'm in a very different philosophical, ethical, and emotional place now than I was 10 years ago, and it will take more than a fresh perspective to overcome my philosophical, ethical, and scientific-historical disagreements with Christianity. I simply have fundamental disagreements with the idea of worshipping a person, or personal entity (see my thread 'Is it rational to base faith on a person?' for a more detailed explanation of why).

[Purple Knight]

Luke’s parallel account of the same event shows that Jesus wasn’t hiding his truth from all of humanity—only those who were hardened: “When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John” (Lk. 7:29-30). Notice that the sinners came to Christ through his words, while the Pharisees did not. The same sun melts butter, but hardens clay.

If I was made as clay then I cannot apologise for being clay. If your goal is to sort the clay from the butter then good job Jesus, you win.

That says nothing of those who are made of clay and would rather be better. Butter. I mean, butter. No wait... better.

I'm going to give this the best credit I can and say very well, you're talking about speaking to those who will listen; those whose hearts are open. That's all well and good unless people are legitimately trying to understand and cannot.

My whole reason for being here is that I'm an evil person and I listen to everyone about what good is. I am trying to find good. I am trying to become good. I think it's ludicrous to believe in a god but, at the same time, it's possible the people who do have some secret to morality. I want to investigate that because I won't overlook anything. I read everything at once critically, even if I agree with it, and open-mindedly, even if I wholeheartedly disagree. I always defend people I disagree with if I see logic in what they say.

I'm using my whole heart here. If I'm not good yet it's because I wasn't made to be. That doesn't excuse me from still trying, but it puts the blame for my evilness where it belongs.

[William]

It obviously doesn't matter if you or I or anyone else have a problem with an invisible hard to find Creator of this Creation.

That is true.

The difference is, I wouldn't worship such a malevolent, trickster entity. It would be irrelevant to me. You on the other hand, find this Creator worthy of worship. This is the heart of our disagreement, William.

Hang on a mo Haven. It hasn't been established that The Creator is as you claim [a malevolent, trickster]

How do you know Jesus was speaking the truth, based on that statement alone? Have you considered the possibility that he may have been mistaken or even deliberately attempting to deceive? Have you weighed the possibility that his words may have been distorted or misrepresented by the authors of the gospels (Jesus did not write them)?

I don't know just by reading about it, that he was or wasn't speaking the truth. I do know that his advice was to seek the evidence therein and if it turned out to be able to be experienced as real, then yes. I then know that Jesus was speaking the truth.

Where was Jesus ever recorded as saying that? Do you have a source?

No doubt there will be some recording of such type of advice accredited as being from Jesus. But I am not speaking about things which are written record, but rather my own experience.

Surely a necessary step in the process of being 'born again'...don't let the "Christian" labels dissuade you from that quest...in this case it just means "drop every notion you were ever given and start again from scratch"

Thanks so much for the encouragement, William, but unfortunately I'll have to say no thanks? Unlike my younger self, I have no interest in being "born again" or believing in Jesus / the Abrahamic god / Christianity. Furthermore, I also do not want to abandon my education and academic knowledge before analyzing religious claims.

As long as you realize it has always been your choice...just as surely as my journey through this Reality has been my choice.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #31]

The way I see it, if The Creator hides things it is because we don't want to see those things. We want them to remain hidden from our awareness.

Surely that may be for some, but not everyone (speaking from personal experience).

The way I see it Faith is necessary because we have brought into things which make it that way.

A very good point, which I wouldn't disagree with in total.

Still, one is then [thereafter] required to think about what kind of a Creator are we dealing with, and in that, find resolution.

Absolutely, but I don't think that happens enough.

If you think you are one of those wicked/tares, to the point that you believe it to be true, then it is not The Creators choice for you. It is your choice for yourself.

Yes!

[1213]

...How about me? I very much wanted a divine revelation about 10 years ago, when I was questioning my Christian faith (this was just before I joined DC&R for the first time). The revelation never came, but the evidence that Christianity was incoherent came in droves.

Thank you, I think you got the divine revelation.

I think it is true that Christianity is incoherent. It does not mean Bible is wrong, or that everything Christians have is wrong. But, for example that there are many different sects tell that Christian religion is incoherent, there is lot of different views that are called Christian.

Sad thing is that now that you got the revelation, you apparently settled to that and didn’t continue the journey. I think it is common with atheists, when they find “truth” they like, they stop to that place and think basically that now they have found perfection, no need to think more.

I think, after one gets the revelation that Christianity is incoherent, it would be good if it leads person to study Bible and think what is correct Christianity and what is not. I believe, if you would have done so, you could have found greater understating, which I think is one of the best things Bible and God has to offer.

And, because you thought you didn’t get what you asked, you probably waited something else. So, could you tell what you expected, when you wanted a divine revelation?

What do you make of that, 1213? You've seen my posts over the years, and you've seen how my perspectives have shifted. Do you think I'm lying, mistaken, or giving an earnest account?

I think we can assume you speak the truth. If you lie, I think it is more harmful for you than to us.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #31]

The way I see it, if The Creator hides things it is because we don't want to see those things. We want them to remain hidden from our awareness.

Surely that may be for some, but not everyone (speaking from personal experience).

It is hard for me to tell. I may be confusing what you write with what Haven writes, but the impression I get is that you gave up looking.
Sorry if that is the wrong impression...

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #31]

The way I see it, if The Creator hides things it is because we don't want to see those things. We want them to remain hidden from our awareness.

Surely that may be for some, but not everyone (speaking from personal experience).

It is hard for me to tell. I may be confusing what you write with what Haven writes, but the impression I get is that you gave up looking.
Sorry if that is the wrong impression...

No apologies needed.
I haven't given up totally, in that I'm open to possibilities. But actively seeking from the modern Christian god? After decades of asking, crying, praying, seeking, knocking, seeking counsel, et al, I'm no longer pulling at his coat tails asking. If he wants to offer something that gets my attention, I'm all ears. Otherwise....

[William]

[Replying to William in post #31]

The way I see it, if The Creator hides things it is because we don't want to see those things. We want them to remain hidden from our awareness.

Surely that may be for some, but not everyone (speaking from personal experience).

It is hard for me to tell. I may be confusing what you write with what Haven writes, but the impression I get is that you gave up looking.
Sorry if that is the wrong impression...

No apologies needed.
I haven't given up totally, in that I'm open to possibilities. But actively seeking from the modern Christian god? After decades of asking, crying, praying, seeking, knocking, seeking counsel, et al, I'm no longer pulling at his coat tails asking. If he wants to offer something that gets my attention, I'm all ears. Otherwise....

Out of curiosity, what exactly would you expect that would satisfy you that The Creator has your attention?
[lets not confuse The Creator with all the Christian ideas they dress The Creator up in]