Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Moderator: Moderators
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3046
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3276 times
- Been thanked: 2023 times
Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #1I was looking through some old posts to find topics that would make good debate topics, but were never fully explored. One of them is if the biblical book of Ruth is fiction in the sense that the author wrote it as such, perhaps as an extended parable, with the expectation that readers would know and understand it to be fictional?
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3046
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3276 times
- Been thanked: 2023 times
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #11Given other positions you've taken in the past, I'm sure you don't. That doesn't address any of the many actual reasons I gave you, though. If you want to be part of the discussion, you'll need to offer more than "nope!"
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
- Haven
- Guru
- Posts: 1803
- Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:23 pm
- Location: Tremonton, Utah
- Has thanked: 70 times
- Been thanked: 52 times
- Contact:
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #12For one, the names. They are all words symbolic of the themes of the tale.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:19 amDifflugia wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:47 am
I was looking through some old posts to find topics that would make good debate topics, but were never fully explored. One of them is if the biblical book of Ruth is fiction in the sense that the author wrote it as such, perhaps as an extended parable, with the expectation that readers would know and understand it to be fictional?
I don’t think there really is anything that supports the idea that is fictional. It is told in a manner that I wouldn’t think means it is meant to be taken as fictional.
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11467
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 327 times
- Been thanked: 373 times
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #13I think that doesn’t’ work, because there can be many reasons for the names. And, even I have a name that has interesting meaning that someone could later say makes me fictional character.
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3046
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3276 times
- Been thanked: 2023 times
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #14This is another one of those situations where "possible" doesn't imply "probable" or even "plausible."
Multiple characters have names that fit their roles in the story. Furthermore, those names have negative connotations of the type that very few people would use to name a child (imagine an English-speaker naming a child "Feeble," for example).
That's not the argument, though. Nobody said that the names are markers of fiction because they're interesting, but because they fit the story in a way that would be an "interesting" coincidence for one name, but implausible for at least three (Mahlon, Chilion, Orpah).
The other datum is that chapter 3 has so many Hebrew sex puns mashed together that I think it's nearly impossible to argue that it's coincidence. I'd be shocked if you could find a similar density of Hebrew words with sexual connotations anywhere else in the Bible outside of Song of Songs.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
- Clownboat
- Savant
- Posts: 9381
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
- Has thanked: 906 times
- Been thanked: 1260 times
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #15You missed the point.
(To try another way)
This reminds me of a story of about a family of mostly misfits.
The eldest son was a thief and his parents had named him Rob Ber.
The daughter was a bit of a drunk, her parents had named her Tipsy.
The youngest brother was often abused by his older siblings. His name was Sufferer, but his friends often referred to him as Victim.
Would parents for one, give their children such names and two, does it really read like nonfiction?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11467
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 327 times
- Been thanked: 373 times
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #16Ok, but what if the meaning for those words came later, after the story and because of the story?Clownboat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:32 pm ...
This reminds me of a story of about a family of mostly misfits.
The eldest son was a thief and his parents had named him Rob Ber.
The daughter was a bit of a drunk, her parents had named her Tipsy.
The youngest brother was often abused by his older siblings. His name was Sufferer, but his friends often referred to him as Victim.
Would parents for one, give their children such names and two, does it really read like nonfiction?
Or what if they are not really meant as their names, but like nicknames?
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11467
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 327 times
- Been thanked: 373 times
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #17Is it not possible that the connotations are not developed later, because of that story?
That is interesting claim. Unfortunately, I don’t understand Hebrew so that I could see is that really true. Difficult to believe that the original writer would have meant that there are such things.
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3046
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3276 times
- Been thanked: 2023 times
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #18Only if Ruth is the oldest book of the Old Testament. It's not.
Why would that be difficult to believe if by your own admission you have no information either way? If you're willing to do even a small amount of work for it, I already told you which words to look up.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21140
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 794 times
- Been thanked: 1129 times
- Contact:
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #19Many cultures gives names that are descritive of the person and the Hebrews were no exceptions. We do not know if the names were given at birth or later in their lives*, but they were evidently fitting given the boys relatively short lives. The bible is full of descriptive names, not all given at birth and not all complimentary.
* in the same account Naoim changes her name because of her bitter experiences
My own mother's native name translates as "she may live or she may die" She happened to lived but had she not reached puberty, would that have made her a fictional character?
Suggesting the story is fictional based on the presence of sex, death or descriptive names shows a sad disregard for traditional culture as well as for the fundamentals of the human condition itself and makes for an extremely weak argument .
JW
![Image](https://i.ibb.co/rvQ2m2k/Screenshot-20210217-214747-Chrome.jpg)
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- Haven
- Guru
- Posts: 1803
- Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:23 pm
- Location: Tremonton, Utah
- Has thanked: 70 times
- Been thanked: 52 times
- Contact:
Re: Is the book of Ruth fiction?
Post #20We know this is false, because they appear elsewhere in the Bible, in passages predating the book of Ruth (such as Genesis 2:5). Also, at the time, nicknames would not have been used in literature intended for political or religious purposes, which is what the Book of Ruth likely was. A political tractate, with a message.
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥