Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
Are modern values Christian in origin?
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Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #1On another thread, historia wrote:
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #21Acts 4:32-35 was written by some unknown author with supposed links to the false prophet Paul. If you believe it, why don't you sell all you have and give it to the "church"? My note was about taking from one person and giving it to another. The word "take" is usually done at the point of an IRS gun, government requirements. Marxism is a religion, which denigrates the principal, or necessity of there being a God. The current military arm of Marxism, trained Marxist, is the BLM movement, for which their principles contain the obliteration of church and family, and the confiscation of property of others, to distribute among themselves. The principle of most religions is to do unto others as you would have them do to you, and this does not include taking from others to keep for yourself, or as an after thought, give some portion to your chosen few. That didn't work out for the early followers of Stalin, who either found themselves dead or in the Russian Gulags.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:10 pmThe economic program laid out in Acts 4:32-35 is clearly geared for "helping those less fortunate". The Christian apostles don't seem to have minded that it was Marxist [long before Marx], and since they were the ones running it, it could hardly be defined as godless.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:13 amThe "helping those less fortunate", as in taking from Peter to give Paul, is a godless Marxist strategy.
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #22My bet is the Russians are waiting for the 2024 elections. The Russians played a big part in getting Trump elected and they will do whatever they can to get Trump back in office. Trump in infatuated with Putin and will not interfere in Putin’s expansionist ideas.
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #23Sorry, but that sounds delusional. How did Russians get Trump elected and what evidence do you have for that? Trump did what was the best for USA, Biden does the opposite. If Russia and China would pick leader for USA, they would definitely choose Biden.thomasdixon wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:55 am My bet is the Russians are waiting for the 2024 elections. The Russians played a big part in getting Trump elected and they will do whatever they can to get Trump back in office. Trump in infatuated with Putin and will not interfere in Putin’s expansionist ideas.
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #24Intelligence Report: Russia Tried To Help Trump In 2020 Election
March 16, 20216:11 PM ET
https://tinyurl.com/39sjve66
Russian Interference in 2020 Included Influencing Trump Associates, Report Says
The assessment was the intelligence community’s most comprehensive look at foreign efforts to interfere in the election.
https://tinyurl.com/3n8es22h
US: Putin approved operations to help Trump against Biden
By ERIC TUCKER
March 17, 2021
https://tinyurl.com/3jxktkcp
This says it all
https://tinyurl.com/3fz2dk23
Last edited by thomasdixon on Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #26Are modern values Christian in origin?
carrying values, honest values and truthful values are Christian values.
Is that what you meant?
And no;.,, they are not modern values, these values were around before Christ was born.
Christ just brought these values out for all of us to see
carrying values, honest values and truthful values are Christian values.
Is that what you meant?
And no;.,, they are not modern values, these values were around before Christ was born.
Christ just brought these values out for all of us to see
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #27I do think they are to some degree genetic. I don't think we need God to tell us not to bash each other over the head with rocks and eat the goo that spews out whenever we get hungry. I think it's a function of the fact that tribes that helped one another succeeded over the ones that went ahead and skull bashed their fellows whenever the fancy took them.1213 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:49 pmThe matter is about, where does the values come originally.
I think those are learned qualities. I don’t think they by genetic programming. If you disagree, or think those qualities come some other way, please tell how do you think people get them?
If we agree that they are learnt, then there must be someone who taught them. And by what I know, secular people have no secular source for those qualities. If you think there is, please tell one example?
But there's no denying the effects of Christianity in applying these values to larger societies and getting people to apply them to people beyond their tribe.
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #28Yes. They are Generic (instinctive/socially evolved). The basic example is the principle of reciprocity or the Golden Rule, NOT a Christian or even specifically Bible -taught value as it appears in almost as many countries as a Flood myth. I did note that at least one of the versions in the Gospels was inverted so it became proactive. That is, instead of not doing to others what they wouldn't want for themselves, it says to do to them what you would want them to do (to yourself (1). This is a recipe for Christian interference (for their own good). Although not as a well known as the quiet gospel support of slavery, it is something that should should be pointed up as a Christian value no longer acceptable today.
On the other hand the influence of religion on human ethics is undeniable as in regarding too much enjoyment as Sinful, tending to regard slavery and subjugation of women as the natural order of things and the uneasy but essential alliance between the secular and religious elites to obtain and hold power.
(1) I wondered why this had been changed until I realised this "Translated" into "!If I were in your shoes, I'd want me to come and convert you to Christianity. Therefore I regard Jesus' version of the Golden Rule as recommending me to shove Christianity down your throat."
That's what I believe the meaning is and reason why it was changed.
On the other hand the influence of religion on human ethics is undeniable as in regarding too much enjoyment as Sinful, tending to regard slavery and subjugation of women as the natural order of things and the uneasy but essential alliance between the secular and religious elites to obtain and hold power.
(1) I wondered why this had been changed until I realised this "Translated" into "!If I were in your shoes, I'd want me to come and convert you to Christianity. Therefore I regard Jesus' version of the Golden Rule as recommending me to shove Christianity down your throat."
That's what I believe the meaning is and reason why it was changed.
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #29My position on the OP is that humans simply codified their values under the "guise" of Christianity, as none can show a god or gods exists to tell us anything about em.
If it comforts the Christian to think they came up with these values, that don't fret me too much.
My issue comes when they seek to impose their values on everyone else.
I listen to a good bit of right wing radio (know your opponent), and just yesterday this Todd Starnes guy, regarding slavery and womens rights, and gay marriage and such, said such as, "We ain't perfect, but we got around to it".
A great example of how so many "Christian values" are "got around to" on the backs of folks who have to shame and cajole, fight and suffer to get so many Christians to accept that others have value even if we don't like how they carry on.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #30Our values are not based on Christianity, but biblical scripture which was written before the birth of Jesus Christ.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:25 amA great example of how so many "Christian values" are "got around to" on the backs of folks who have to shame and cajole, fight and suffer to get so many Christians to accept that others have value even if we don't like how they carry on.
Whether you realize it or not, four (4) of the ten (10) commandments have been put into public “law” in every country across this planet, bar none; religious or not.
Ten Commandments
1. Thou shalt not kill.
2. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
3. Thou shalt not steal.
4. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
5. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
And as a follow up, many of these countries are trying to enact the following as well------------------
(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.
(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.
As a footnote the term
"stranger" is referenced 128 times.