Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
Are modern values Christian in origin?
Moderator: Moderators
- Haven
- Guru
- Posts: 1803
- Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:23 pm
- Location: Tremonton, Utah
- Has thanked: 70 times
- Been thanked: 52 times
- Contact:
Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #1On another thread, historia wrote:
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #3To be clear, not all Christian societies adhere to all the above mentioned ethical values. And, there are non-Christian societies that do value many of the above. Moreover, they exist in varying degrees; many societies, both Christian and otherwise, expressing exceptions and/or conditions.Haven wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 pm On another thread, historia wrote:
Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
.
- Haven
- Guru
- Posts: 1803
- Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:23 pm
- Location: Tremonton, Utah
- Has thanked: 70 times
- Been thanked: 52 times
- Contact:
Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #4I’m not entirely sure what you mean by this? Are secular people / non-Christians really unkind, dishonest, and ungenerous? What evidence do you have to support this claim?
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #5Like the bible or not, believe in the bible or not, like Christianity or not, believe in Christianity or not, there's no skipping the fact that it/them have had an enormous impact on societies (Western society especially). This isn't because said book or religion is right or wrong, but because, with humanity, belief is a powerful thing - maybe one of the most powerful things humanity possesses.Haven wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 pm On another thread, historia wrote:
Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 2690
- Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 484 times
Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #6All virtues are said to be encompassed in the "Golden Rule", which certainly predates Christianity:Haven wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 pm On another thread, historia wrote:
Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
https://www.nrm.org/2018/03/golden-rule ... religions/
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11333
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 312 times
- Been thanked: 357 times
Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #7The matter is about, where does the values come originally.
I think those are learned qualities. I don’t think they by genetic programming. If you disagree, or think those qualities come some other way, please tell how do you think people get them?
If we agree that they are learnt, then there must be someone who taught them. And by what I know, secular people have no secular source for those qualities. If you think there is, please tell one example?
- Haven
- Guru
- Posts: 1803
- Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:23 pm
- Location: Tremonton, Utah
- Has thanked: 70 times
- Been thanked: 52 times
- Contact:
Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #8Now we're getting somewhere: this is the debate question. I have a few follow-up questions:1213 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:49 pm The matter is about, where does the values come originally.
I think those are learned qualities. I don’t think they by genetic programming. If you disagree, or think those qualities come some other way, please tell how do you think people get them?
If we agree that they are learnt, then there must be someone who taught them. And by what I know, secular people have no secular source for those qualities. If you think there is, please tell one example?
1. Where, exactly, do you think values come from? Why?
2. What evidence do you have for this?
Remember, you have the burden of proof here, since you are the one claiming they come from a god. I disbelieve that claim. What evidence can you show to convince me?
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11333
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 312 times
- Been thanked: 357 times
Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #9First, I would like to ask, we agree that the values come from someone’s teachings and are not automatically instantly right after person is born?Haven wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:39 am …
1. Where, exactly, do you think values come from? Why?
2. What evidence do you have for this?
Remember, you have the burden of proof here, since you are the one claiming they come from a god. I disbelieve that claim. What evidence can you show to convince me?
Because values seem to be taught, not automatically adopted, there must be some first person who gave the teachings. And, if we agree that humans don’t have them automatically, the source must be someone else. Because the values are written in the Bible, and the credit is given to God, not to man, I think it is logical to believe that God is ultimately the source. If they would come from a man, that man would demand recognition of his sayings. Humans don’t give credit for their own achievements to others. If you disagree with that, please show one example.
But, you could say that they are learned in long time and written down. The biggest problem with that is, if it would be from humans, why would they give credit for God?
Also, perhaps it is wrong to say modern people have any good values left. People, especially leaders, seem to be quite evil nowadays, if they have some values, they seem to be opposite of what God said is good.
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 5993
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6607 times
- Been thanked: 3209 times
Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?
Post #10Trump and Putin certainly fit the bill, but it is unreasonable to tar all leaders with the same brush.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.