Are modern values Christian in origin?

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Are modern values Christian in origin?

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Post by Haven »

On another thread, historia wrote:
historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

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Haven wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 pm ...
Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?
In where I live (Finland), those values seem to be from the Bible and from the people who were Christians.

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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

Post #3

Post by Miles »

Haven wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 pm On another thread, historia wrote:
historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?
To be clear, not all Christian societies adhere to all the above mentioned ethical values. And, there are non-Christian societies that do value many of the above. Moreover, they exist in varying degrees; many societies, both Christian and otherwise, expressing exceptions and/or conditions.



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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

Post #4

Post by Haven »

1213 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:18 am
In where I live (Finland), those values seem to be from the Bible and from the people who were Christians.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by this? Are secular people / non-Christians really unkind, dishonest, and ungenerous? What evidence do you have to support this claim?
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

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Post by nobspeople »

Haven wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 pm On another thread, historia wrote:
historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?
Like the bible or not, believe in the bible or not, like Christianity or not, believe in Christianity or not, there's no skipping the fact that it/them have had an enormous impact on societies (Western society especially). This isn't because said book or religion is right or wrong, but because, with humanity, belief is a powerful thing - maybe one of the most powerful things humanity possesses.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

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Post by Athetotheist »

Haven wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 pm On another thread, historia wrote:
historia wrote: ..... That much I understood. And I appreciate the fact that you don't care that you are judging Christianity according to values that you ultimately inherited from Christianity itself. Feelings don't need to be rational. ....
Debate question: Are modern ethical values (right to life and liberty, equality under the law, bodily autonomy, fairness, helping those less fortunate) a product of Christianity, or do they have a secular basis?
All virtues are said to be encompassed in the "Golden Rule", which certainly predates Christianity:

https://www.nrm.org/2018/03/golden-rule ... religions/

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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

Post #7

Post by 1213 »

Haven wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:24 am
1213 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:18 am
In where I live (Finland), those values seem to be from the Bible and from the people who were Christians.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by this? Are secular people / non-Christians really unkind, dishonest, and ungenerous? What evidence do you have to support this claim?
The matter is about, where does the values come originally.

I think those are learned qualities. I don’t think they by genetic programming. If you disagree, or think those qualities come some other way, please tell how do you think people get them?

If we agree that they are learnt, then there must be someone who taught them. And by what I know, secular people have no secular source for those qualities. If you think there is, please tell one example?

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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

Post #8

Post by Haven »

1213 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:49 pm The matter is about, where does the values come originally.

I think those are learned qualities. I don’t think they by genetic programming. If you disagree, or think those qualities come some other way, please tell how do you think people get them?

If we agree that they are learnt, then there must be someone who taught them. And by what I know, secular people have no secular source for those qualities. If you think there is, please tell one example?
Now we're getting somewhere: this is the debate question. I have a few follow-up questions:

1. Where, exactly, do you think values come from? Why?
2. What evidence do you have for this?

Remember, you have the burden of proof here, since you are the one claiming they come from a god. I disbelieve that claim. What evidence can you show to convince me?
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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

Post #9

Post by 1213 »

Haven wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:39 am
1. Where, exactly, do you think values come from? Why?
2. What evidence do you have for this?
Remember, you have the burden of proof here, since you are the one claiming they come from a god. I disbelieve that claim. What evidence can you show to convince me?
First, I would like to ask, we agree that the values come from someone’s teachings and are not automatically instantly right after person is born?

Because values seem to be taught, not automatically adopted, there must be some first person who gave the teachings. And, if we agree that humans don’t have them automatically, the source must be someone else. Because the values are written in the Bible, and the credit is given to God, not to man, I think it is logical to believe that God is ultimately the source. If they would come from a man, that man would demand recognition of his sayings. Humans don’t give credit for their own achievements to others. If you disagree with that, please show one example.

But, you could say that they are learned in long time and written down. The biggest problem with that is, if it would be from humans, why would they give credit for God?

Also, perhaps it is wrong to say modern people have any good values left. People, especially leaders, seem to be quite evil nowadays, if they have some values, they seem to be opposite of what God said is good.

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Re: Are modern values Christian in origin?

Post #10

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:38 pm People, especially leaders, seem to be quite evil nowadays, if they have some values, they seem to be opposite of what God said is good.
Trump and Putin certainly fit the bill, but it is unreasonable to tar all leaders with the same brush.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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