Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

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Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

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Post by Haven »

One of the most prominent claims Christians make about the Bible is that it is the word of their god, and is ultimately of divine origin (either through God controlling the human authors, dictating words to them, or 'inspiring' them to write).

If this purported authorship by an omniscient being were true, one would expect the Bible to be more scientifically and ethically advanced than the average person of the time and place (1000 BCE-100 CE, Middle East & Mediterranean -- the Ancient Near East [ANE]).

One would expect to find, for example, scientifically accurate insights about the origin of the Universe and Earth, the animals that inhabit the planet, the origin of humanity, the nature of earthquakes, floods, and climate, and so on. One would expect useful insights on how to cure diseases, make childbirth safer, develop technologies to improve lives and help those with disabilities, et cetera.

Finally, one would expect an advanced moral vision, one that explicitly condemns slavery and sexual exploitation, affirms the equality of all nations, stands against war and genocide, declares the equality and inclusion of women and LGBTQIA people, and implores us to care for the Earth, avoiding disasters like famines, pandemics, climate change, pollution, and so on.

________________

The problem, for Christianity, is that no such advanced wisdom is found in the Bible. Instead, we have a collection of writings that by and large affirm the common knowledges, beliefs, and prejudices of the human inhabitants of the ANE.

One finds, for example, numerous scientifically inaccurate passages about the Earth being flat and resting on pillars, life being created in six days, the sky being made of water above a "firmament" and so on. It contains a statement that showing striped sticks to goats will cause their offspring to be striped. It says that a menstrual cycle made a woman "unclean."

The Bible contains numerous passages on planting crops, slaughtering animals, and reaping grain, but no accurate information on how to cure diseases or make childbirth safer. It contains no mention of mental illness, but talks endlessly about demons and devils causing illness, deafness, and insanity. It is about as scientifically accurate as an average ANE peasant.

__________

The Bible's moral vision also reflects a viewpoint that cannot be called advanced in any way. It calls homosexuality an abomination, but condones slavery, pedophilia (old men 'marrying' young girls), concubinage (sex slavery), and polygyny (many women / young girls 'marrying' one man, often for political reasons). It prevaricates on rape, calling for the death penalty when the victim is a "virgin," but also says a woman must marry her rapist. It says that a woman who doesn't scream loud enough is lying about being raped, and should be stoned to death for "adultery."

The Bible is extremely sexist in general, saying that women are subservient, influenced by evil, weak-minded, weak-bodied, created as men's "helpers" (not equals), not fit to speak in church, should be "silent" with "all subjection," and generally made to be vessels for birth, homemakers and little more. Christian scripture is also racist, explicitly affirming the Jews as God's "chosen people," and giving them favorable treatment compared to the rest of humanity.

It is violent and warlike, containing commands to wipe out entire ethnicities (Amalekites, Merathaimites), kill civilians (including children), take young girls as sex slaves / spoils of war, execute people for religious disagreements, and take/trade slaves. The Bible condemns gender non-conforming people, but commands slaves to serve their masters with subjugation, and never once says slavery is in any way immoral or not the "natural state of things." It says non-human animals are mere objects for human exploitation.

_________

I can go on and on and on, but the point should be obvious--the scientific and moral content of the Bible is more backward than even the most reactionary fundamentalist today. Far from advancing a more enlightened, wise viewpoint, its content is very human and very dated to the time and place in which it was written. It appears clear that the Biblical record contains human wisdom and foolishness, rather than any kind of divine communication.

Debate question: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom? Is there any evidence of divine authorship?
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Haven wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:27 am
What about Exodus 17:8-16?
8 The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. [...] 10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered,

14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven.”
The Amelekites launched an unprovoked attack on a nomadic people that were of no threat to them. What were the Israelites to do but defend themselves?

That God condemned the nation indicates he had forseen the future and knew the Amalekites would make themselves sworn enemies of his people and there would be no security for Israel while they existed. Biblical history testifies this became the reality.

Interestingly it was a descendent of these very people that devised a plot for the genocide of the Jews thousands of years later during the reign of Queen Esther.

Joshua fought for the survival of the nation in self defence; it was the Amelekites who started it, but Jehovah who finished. You get what you ask for.





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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Haven wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:06 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #13]

Genesis 1:1 / the Bereshit sentence was meant to be an overview sentence, summarizing the chapter.

OVERVIEW: An overview is a general summary of something. An overview gives the big picture, while leaving out the minor details.


I cannot disagree, Genesis 1:1 does indeed give an overview but there is nothing in an overview that negates it being in retrospect as well as forward viewing. Indeed if one considers the sense of the word it should be both. An overview of a given situation usually reqiures insights of what lead up to a given situation as well as a summary of what is predicted to happen after that point.


Let us take Genesis 6:9 as an example
GENESIS 6:9

This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the true God.
Thus we are introduced fo the bible character Noah a righteous / blameless man (compare Job 1:1-5). Are we to conclude that Noahs righteousness began at the time we are first introduced to the character? The previous verses described the wickedness of society at the time and God's determination to destroy the people. Logically Noah and his family attracted Gods attention because they proved different. Thus the introductory "overview" incorporates what already exists (Noahs record of righteousness) as well as indicates what is to come.

In a similar way GENESIS 1:1 presents an overview of the origins of the universe.
God Created the heavens and the earth.
Noah was a righteous man
  • was Noah righteous before the events that will next be described? Probably; the bible does not explicitly say but it is a reasonable conclusion and there is nothing in the nature of the overview that negates this probablility .
  • was was the earth in existence before the events that will next be described? Probably; the bible does not explicitly say but it is a reasonable conclusion and there is nothing in the nature of the overview that negates this probablility

WHEN DID GOD CREATE THE EARTH?


Image

Genesis 1:1 presents a majestically sweeping statement: That God is responsible for the existence of both the heavens and the earth. We have to read from verse 2 through to 31 to find details. A close examination of the narrative strongly indicates the writers intent to describe the details, not of how GOD created the universe from "nothing" but how God prepared the earth for human habitation.
If the narrators starting point from verse 2 was not an already created planet we have a formless earth that doesn't exist. This is rather like having an ugly house that hasn't been built

Thus, that the writer does not repeat the the initial creation ("bara")of the planet itself in those details, is neither problematic nor conclusive. If anything it is indicative that he had said all that needed to be said on that particular point.







JW




PRRSONAL BLOG: CREATED (BARA)
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... alone.html
bara beset 1:1ff
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... ns-of.html


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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Haven wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:06 am It doesn't imply the Earth was already created after Genesis 1:1.
This sentence is a little unclear perhaps you can rephrase. Do you mean that the text does not allow for the earth to be in existence prior to the events described in Genesis 1 verses 2 through 31? If so, see above.

If not perhaps you can better explain the point you are attempting to make in your own words if possible.
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #24

Post by 1213 »

Haven wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:46 pm ...The problem, for Christianity, is that no such advanced wisdom is found in the Bible. Instead, we have a collection of writings that by and large affirm the common knowledges, beliefs, and prejudices of the human inhabitants of the ANE.

One finds, for example, numerous scientifically inaccurate passages about the Earth being flat and resting on pillars, life being created in six days, the sky being made of water above a "firmament" and so on. It contains a statement that showing striped sticks to goats will cause their offspring to be striped. ...
I think the real problem is that you imagine that your wisdom and knowledge is true and better than anything else. All you really offer is your opinion as superior to what Bible tells and it really is not very meaningful.

Also, Bible doesn’t say earth is flat, for example because it tells there is mountain(s). Nor does the Bible say “striped sticks to goats will cause their offspring to be striped”. That kind of claims from you don’t really help you and actually are harmful for your credibility.

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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #25

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Haven wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:46 pm One of the most prominent claims Christians make about the Bible is that it is the word of their god, and is ultimately of divine origin (either through God controlling the human authors, dictating words to them, or 'inspiring' them to write).

If this purported authorship by an omniscient being were true, one would expect the Bible to be more scientifically and ethically advanced than the average person of the time and place (1000 BCE-100 CE, Middle East & Mediterranean -- the Ancient Near East [ANE]).

One would expect to find, for example, scientifically accurate insights about the origin of the Universe and Earth, the animals that inhabit the planet, the origin of humanity, the nature of earthquakes, floods, and climate, and so on. One would expect useful insights on how to cure diseases, make childbirth safer, develop technologies to improve lives and help those with disabilities, et cetera.

Finally, one would expect an advanced moral vision, one that explicitly condemns slavery and sexual exploitation, affirms the equality of all nations, stands against war and genocide, declares the equality and inclusion of women and LGBTQIA people, and implores us to care for the Earth, avoiding disasters like famines, pandemics, climate change, pollution, and so on.

________________

The problem, for Christianity, is that no such advanced wisdom is found in the Bible. Instead, we have a collection of writings that by and large affirm the common knowledges, beliefs, and prejudices of the human inhabitants of the ANE.

One finds, for example, numerous scientifically inaccurate passages about the Earth being flat and resting on pillars, life being created in six days, the sky being made of water above a "firmament" and so on. It contains a statement that showing striped sticks to goats will cause their offspring to be striped. It says that a menstrual cycle made a woman "unclean."

The Bible contains numerous passages on planting crops, slaughtering animals, and reaping grain, but no accurate information on how to cure diseases or make childbirth safer. It contains no mention of mental illness, but talks endlessly about demons and devils causing illness, deafness, and insanity. It is about as scientifically accurate as an average ANE peasant.

__________

The Bible's moral vision also reflects a viewpoint that cannot be called advanced in any way. It calls homosexuality an abomination, but condones slavery, pedophilia (old men 'marrying' young girls), concubinage (sex slavery), and polygyny (many women / young girls 'marrying' one man, often for political reasons). It prevaricates on rape, calling for the death penalty when the victim is a "virgin," but also says a woman must marry her rapist. It says that a woman who doesn't scream loud enough is lying about being raped, and should be stoned to death for "adultery."

The Bible is extremely sexist in general, saying that women are subservient, influenced by evil, weak-minded, weak-bodied, created as men's "helpers" (not equals), not fit to speak in church, should be "silent" with "all subjection," and generally made to be vessels for birth, homemakers and little more. Christian scripture is also racist, explicitly affirming the Jews as God's "chosen people," and giving them favorable treatment compared to the rest of humanity.

It is violent and warlike, containing commands to wipe out entire ethnicities (Amalekites, Merathaimites), kill civilians (including children), take young girls as sex slaves / spoils of war, execute people for religious disagreements, and take/trade slaves. The Bible condemns gender non-conforming people, but commands slaves to serve their masters with subjugation, and never once says slavery is in any way immoral or not the "natural state of things." It says non-human animals are mere objects for human exploitation.

_________

I can go on and on and on, but the point should be obvious--the scientific and moral content of the Bible is more backward than even the most reactionary fundamentalist today. Far from advancing a more enlightened, wise viewpoint, its content is very human and very dated to the time and place in which it was written. It appears clear that the Biblical record contains human wisdom and foolishness, rather than any kind of divine communication.

Debate question: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom? Is there any evidence of divine authorship?
Your human wisdom, as in determining right from wrong, good from evil, starts in Eden, when Eve was sold a bill of goods by the serpent/devil, the father of lies, such as man determining good from evil, as is now known as progressivism, which led to Eve's death, and the death of all her future seed, who determine the difference between right and wrong. As per science, one of the greatest scientist of all time was Newton, whose source of understanding was based on his study of the OT, which was written for those with ears to hear (understand). As for the testimony of Yeshua, which was in parables, it was written so the wicked would not understand as stated in Daniel 12:10 & Matthew 13:13. As for the NT, edited by the church of the tares (wicked/lawless), it is composed mostly of the supposed writings of the false prophet Paul and his supposed associates. As per "childbirth", the pain increased by Eve's actions, and the solution of the Progressives, is to kill 60,000,000 unborn children in the US since 1973. That wrong action will bring the wrath of God upon not only the Progressives, who determine for themselves what is right and wrong, but will affect the millions living in their vicinity. A reason why it might be wise for those with insight to leave the cities (Revelation 16:19). As for your gender dysphoria practitioners, their suicide rate is so high because they have been led down a path to no where by individuals of similar mental problems, most likely the product of demon possession, in which the demons are sons of the devil. As we are in the latter days (Daniel 12), the demons are in a tissy fit, seeing the their world is coming to an end (Revelation 20:1-3). Your evidence of divine authorship is the fulfillment of Daniel 2:45, whereas the nations which came against Jerusalem have all been crushed twice, with the exception of Persia/Iran, the breast of silver, which is destined in the form of Elam, the Iranian nuclear site, which is slated to undergo calamity in the near future. At that time, it will be too late for you to get out of dodge with your bound traditions of men.

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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #26

Post by Athetotheist »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:50 amI also see the text you're referring to as being a mix of both description and prescription. Not everything in the Bible is made for instruction, teaching, or prescribing. Some information is just detail on ordinary events without any consideration for something religious or spiritual.
Some of the text is descriptive but a lot of arguably abusive behavior, especially toward women and foreigners, was written into the law. And in Matthew 5:18, Jesus endorses every last jot and tittle of it.
AgnosticBoy wrote:Perhaps, in this case Moses was wrong in providing some sort of concession to allow some to live as opposed to killing everyone.
So killing everyone would have been better?

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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #27

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:20 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:50 amI also see the text you're referring to as being a mix of both description and prescription. Not everything in the Bible is made for instruction, teaching, or prescribing. Some information is just detail on ordinary events without any consideration for something religious or spiritual.
Some of the text is descriptive but a lot of arguably abusive behavior, especially toward women and foreigners, was written into the law.
As an agnostic, I like to approach matters with a scientific mind. I try to use that standard as far as it can take me but in this case it's not very far. There is no objective basis (as opposed to the personal and cultural standards being thrown around here) for me to argue right or wrong, and therefore I'm agnostic on if marrying girls constitute as abuse. In the United States, minors can marry if their parents consent to it. So if we go by that standard or even the biblical standard, then there is nothing wrong with young brides.
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:20 am And in Matthew 5:18, Jesus endorses every last jot and tittle of it.
I'm not seeing anything wrong here.
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:20 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:50 amPerhaps, in this case Moses was wrong in providing some sort of concession to allow some to live as opposed to killing everyone.
So killing everyone would have been better?
Again, I assume you have a lot of unproven ideological baggage as to what constitutes "better". I'm agnostic on these issues. If you want to argue based on the Biblical standard, then killing everyone would've been better. The Israelites were being influenced by these foreign nations, so leaving some alive still leaves the risk of being influenced.
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #28

Post by Difflugia »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:50 amIt's reasonable to say that these girls were saved for relations with men (esp. since young boys were not spared), but I wouldn't go as far as saying they were used as child sex slaves. The Law specifically forbids fornication or sex outside of a marital arrangement so that would rule out sex slavery. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 support my point.
10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12 and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13 And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14 But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.
In your opinion, what's the diiference between a nonconsensual marriage and what we would consider sexual slavery? The Bible's distinction seems to merely be that a slave can be sold, but a wife cannot. Is that also your distinction?
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #29

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Difflugia wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:32 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:50 amIt's reasonable to say that these girls were saved for relations with men (esp. since young boys were not spared), but I wouldn't go as far as saying they were used as child sex slaves. The Law specifically forbids fornication or sex outside of a marital arrangement so that would rule out sex slavery. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 support my point.
10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12 and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13 And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14 But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.
In your opinion, what's the diiference between a nonconsensual marriage and what we would consider sexual slavery?
A nonconsensual marriage (or arranged marriage) is still a marriage. The functions of a marriage are not just limited to sex, whereas sex slavery is limited to sex. For instance, look at Jacob's arranged marriages. He loved his wives, he cared for them, he had children with them, etc. When we get to the NT, like 1 Corinthians 7:5, then there is some mention of mutual consent for sex and how husbands should treat wives with love and care.
Difflugia wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:32 pmThe Bible's distinction seems to merely be that a slave can be sold, but a wife cannot. Is that also your distinction?
A slave can be sold but that doesn't necessarily refer to a "sex" slave. There were both male and female slaves (e.g. Leviticus 25:44). The ancient Jews weren't pimps or sex traffickers. If you slept with a woman then you were expected to marry her and fulfill all of your marital obligations.

If you want to paint a picture of the Bible lacking wisdom in some cases, then some easier cases to accept are those that conflict with science, such as a 7 day creation story, or man being the first mammal (before Dinosaurs even), etc. I'm very skeptical when it comes to moral judgements unless you have some objective standard to judge by or you can show that the Biblical standards are inconsistent.
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:17 pm
If you want to paint a picture of the Bible lacking wisdom in some cases, then some easier cases to accept are those that conflict with science, such as a ... man being the first mammal (before Dinosaurs even), etc.
Are you suggesting this is what the bible says?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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