Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

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Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #1

Post by Haven »

One of the most prominent claims Christians make about the Bible is that it is the word of their god, and is ultimately of divine origin (either through God controlling the human authors, dictating words to them, or 'inspiring' them to write).

If this purported authorship by an omniscient being were true, one would expect the Bible to be more scientifically and ethically advanced than the average person of the time and place (1000 BCE-100 CE, Middle East & Mediterranean -- the Ancient Near East [ANE]).

One would expect to find, for example, scientifically accurate insights about the origin of the Universe and Earth, the animals that inhabit the planet, the origin of humanity, the nature of earthquakes, floods, and climate, and so on. One would expect useful insights on how to cure diseases, make childbirth safer, develop technologies to improve lives and help those with disabilities, et cetera.

Finally, one would expect an advanced moral vision, one that explicitly condemns slavery and sexual exploitation, affirms the equality of all nations, stands against war and genocide, declares the equality and inclusion of women and LGBTQIA people, and implores us to care for the Earth, avoiding disasters like famines, pandemics, climate change, pollution, and so on.

________________

The problem, for Christianity, is that no such advanced wisdom is found in the Bible. Instead, we have a collection of writings that by and large affirm the common knowledges, beliefs, and prejudices of the human inhabitants of the ANE.

One finds, for example, numerous scientifically inaccurate passages about the Earth being flat and resting on pillars, life being created in six days, the sky being made of water above a "firmament" and so on. It contains a statement that showing striped sticks to goats will cause their offspring to be striped. It says that a menstrual cycle made a woman "unclean."

The Bible contains numerous passages on planting crops, slaughtering animals, and reaping grain, but no accurate information on how to cure diseases or make childbirth safer. It contains no mention of mental illness, but talks endlessly about demons and devils causing illness, deafness, and insanity. It is about as scientifically accurate as an average ANE peasant.

__________

The Bible's moral vision also reflects a viewpoint that cannot be called advanced in any way. It calls homosexuality an abomination, but condones slavery, pedophilia (old men 'marrying' young girls), concubinage (sex slavery), and polygyny (many women / young girls 'marrying' one man, often for political reasons). It prevaricates on rape, calling for the death penalty when the victim is a "virgin," but also says a woman must marry her rapist. It says that a woman who doesn't scream loud enough is lying about being raped, and should be stoned to death for "adultery."

The Bible is extremely sexist in general, saying that women are subservient, influenced by evil, weak-minded, weak-bodied, created as men's "helpers" (not equals), not fit to speak in church, should be "silent" with "all subjection," and generally made to be vessels for birth, homemakers and little more. Christian scripture is also racist, explicitly affirming the Jews as God's "chosen people," and giving them favorable treatment compared to the rest of humanity.

It is violent and warlike, containing commands to wipe out entire ethnicities (Amalekites, Merathaimites), kill civilians (including children), take young girls as sex slaves / spoils of war, execute people for religious disagreements, and take/trade slaves. The Bible condemns gender non-conforming people, but commands slaves to serve their masters with subjugation, and never once says slavery is in any way immoral or not the "natural state of things." It says non-human animals are mere objects for human exploitation.

_________

I can go on and on and on, but the point should be obvious--the scientific and moral content of the Bible is more backward than even the most reactionary fundamentalist today. Far from advancing a more enlightened, wise viewpoint, its content is very human and very dated to the time and place in which it was written. It appears clear that the Biblical record contains human wisdom and foolishness, rather than any kind of divine communication.

Debate question: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom? Is there any evidence of divine authorship?
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #31

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:42 pm
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While widely cited by creationists, aside from a lack of supporting evidence from Mr. Pratt, with few exceptions the entire science community disagrees with this 1928 claim of his.


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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #32

Post by AgnosticBoy »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:25 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:17 pm
If you want to paint a picture of the Bible lacking wisdom in some cases, then some easier cases to accept are those that conflict with science, such as a ... man being the first mammal (before Dinosaurs even), etc.
Are you suggesting this is what the bible says?
That point of mine wasn't correct. The problem I should've raised was man existing contemporaneously with the earliest of animals. Dinosaurs existed millions of years before man. Genesis 1 paints a picture of the first appearance non-human animals (dinosaurs included) and humans being separated by just a day or so. The scientific account conflicts with the Biblical account.

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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #33

Post by JehovahsWitness »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:57 pm The problem I should've raised was man existing contemporaneously with the earliest of animals. Dinosaurs existed millions of years before man.
Are you suggesting the bible says man coexisted with dinosaurs?
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:57 pm Genesis 1 paints a picture of the first appearance non-human animals (dinosaurs included) and humans being separated by just a day or so.
Well that is only problematic if you interpret "day" to refer to 24 hours.

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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

EVOLUTION, BIBLE & SCIENCE and ...THE 7 CREATIVE DAYS OF GENESIS
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #34

Post by AgnosticBoy »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:06 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:57 pm The problem I should've raised was man existing contemporaneously with the earliest of animals. Dinosaurs existed millions of years before man.
Are you suggesting the bible says man coexisted with dinosaurs?
That is one interpretation of Genesis. I'm not convinced of any other interpretation being more valid than the literal one. At times, I tend to find that the only reason someone prefers other interpretations is because it conflicts with science. That standard for judging something to be figurative is just something used to cover up conflicts. You need to get into literary style, the author's intent, how did historical figures (including Jesus) interpret the Creation account.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:06 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:57 pm Genesis 1 paints a picture of the first appearance non-human animals (dinosaurs included) and humans being separated by just a day or so.
Well that js only problematic if you interpret "day" to refer to 24 hours.
Thanks for posting those sources. I will check them out.
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #35

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Image
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:22 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:28 pm...with few exceptions the entire science community disagrees with this 1928 claim of his.

Really? It isn't hard to find the generally accepted order of events regarding the development of the planet and life on it.

Image

Sources:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 075438.htm

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... otime.html

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... n-of-life/

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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:56 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:06 pm
Are you suggesting the bible says man coexisted with dinosaurs?
That is one interpretation of Genesis. I'm not convinced of any other interpretation being more valid than the literal one.
Interesting and which specific verse are you interpreting literally to conclude that the bible impies that man coexisted with dinosaurs?


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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #37

Post by AgnosticBoy »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:29 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:56 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:06 pm
Are you suggesting the bible says man coexisted with dinosaurs?
That is one interpretation of Genesis. I'm not convinced of any other interpretation being more valid than the literal one.
Interesting and which specific verse are you interpreting literally to conclude that the bible impies that man coexisted with dinosaurs?
Genesis 1:24-26 gives an account of God creating land animals (dinosaurs included) and humans on the sixth day. Aquatic animals were created just a day before so I wouldn't have expected them to die off one day later - the same day man was created.
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:53 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:29 pm


Interesting and which specific verse are you interpreting literally to conclude that the bible impies that man coexisted with dinosaurs?
Genesis 1:24-26 gives an account of God creating land animals (dinosaurs included) and humans on the sixth day. Aquatic animals were created just a day before so I wouldn't have expected them to die off one day later - the same day man was created.

so its based on your interpreting "day" to be a 24 jour period. I see.
viewtopic.php?p=1032435#p1032435

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:56 pmYou need to get into literary style, the author's intent, ...
Do you really think you could build a case that the bible writers consistently used the Hebrew word "day" (yom) to mean a literal 24 hour period?

Image
source : https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... ongs=h3117

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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #39

Post by Difflugia »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:17 pmA nonconsensual marriage (or arranged marriage) is still a marriage. The functions of a marriage are not just limited to sex, whereas sex slavery is limited to sex.
I've seen this argument that focuses exclusively on terminology several times now, from several different apologists and I wonder each time exactly what point is being attempted. First, a marriage "arranged" between a captor and a captive stretches the notion of "arranged marriage" rather thinly. Second, you're just claiming that someone forced to have sex isn't a sex slave if they have to do other things, too. Fine. I mean, I disagree, but that's far from the crux of Haven's point. The bad part isn't that someone called them a sex slave when they were forced to have sex and sweep things or mill barley, it's that they were taken as prisoners of war and forced to have sex.

As an aside, while it's not the first time I've seen that argument, it's the first time from someone that identifies as an agnostic.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:17 pmFor instance, look at Jacob's arranged marriages. He loved his wives, he cared for them, he had children with them, etc.
He also didn't slaughter his wives' parents and brothers before taking them away at swordpoint. As far as arranged marriages go, I'm sure Rachel and Leah had a pretty sweet deal. For the record, though, "it could have been worse" isn't really an argument that arranged marriages are benign, but that Jacob was much less awful than he could have been.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:17 pmWhen we get to the NT, like 1 Corinthians 7:5, then there is some mention of mutual consent for sex and how husbands should treat wives with love and care.
Which is what one might expect with roughly eight hundred years of human progress.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:17 pm
Difflugia wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:32 pmThe Bible's distinction seems to merely be that a slave can be sold, but a wife cannot. Is that also your distinction?
A slave can be sold but that doesn't necessarily refer to a "sex" slave. There were both male and female slaves (e.g. Leviticus 25:44). The ancient Jews weren't pimps or sex traffickers.
Since there are stil clear reference to slaves being forced to have sex (whether we can call that "sex slavery" or not), the best you could say is that the ancient Jews weren't exclusively pimps or sex traffickers.
Difflugia wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:32 pmIf you slept with a woman then you were expected to marry her and fulfill all of your marital obligations.
Yes, it could have been worse.
Difflugia wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:32 pmIf you want to paint a picture of the Bible lacking wisdom in some cases, then some easier cases to accept are those that conflict with science, such as a 7 day creation story, or man being the first mammal (before Dinosaurs even), etc. I'm very skeptical when it comes to moral judgements unless you have some objective standard to judge by or you can show that the Biblical standards are inconsistent.
How about "nonconsensual sex and involuntary servitude are always bad" for an objective standard?
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Re: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

Post #40

Post by brunumb »

Genesis 1:5 (KJV)
"And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Where is the implication that the day referred to an age?
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